Cesar Millan – the Good, the Bad, and All the Rest

Comments

1. david says:

   March 5, 2013 at 12:08 am

   Hi, I have a 5 month old pit bull mastiff mix and he is a good dog for the most part. But I do have a few problems that I need help in correcting for one he pees sometimes on the stairs and also he recently Peed on the bed even though he knows where to pee and I don’t understand why he does it, he also goes after my girl friends son iting him and stuff when either her or I are home but apparently he doesn’t do this when we aren’t around. Also he does not seem to take you seriously unless you are yelling at him. I would really like to correct this behavior before he gets much bigger and any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     March 5, 2013 at 1:59 pm

     he pees sometimes on the stairs and also he recently Peed on the bed

     When did you get puppy (how old)? Has he gone a full 1 week with absolutely no accidents in the house? What was the longest time he has gone without peeing in the house? How was he potty trained, i.e., what training methods?

     Here is what I do to potty train my puppy.

     Here is a bit more on how I trained my puppy, and taught her to listen to commands.

     Here are a couple of articles on why puppies bite, and how I taught my puppy to stop biting.
     How to stop puppy biting.
     More puppy biting tips.
2. Erica says:

   February 21, 2013 at 7:17 pm

   Hello,
   I have a full blooded blue and red nose gator pit that will be a year in May, hes a very hyper dog that likes to jump on everybody that walks through the front door (could just be that he’s a puppy still). Also I have 3 children that for the most part hes very loving with until it comes to bones and dog food. My children and I feed Capone doggie treats out of our hand and he’s completely calm and even listens to “|eave it and Easy” but if the boys go near his bone or dog food he gets mad and snips at them. I don’t understand it because I can go near him when he has such things and he’s fine. If you have an insight on how to fix his bad behavior I would very much appreciate it.

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     February 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm

     Here are some of my experiences with food aggression -
     http://shibashake.com/dog/why-dogs-get-aggressive-over-food-toys
     http://shibashake.com/dog/stop-food-aggression-stop-resource-guarding
3. Jackie says:

   November 26, 2012 at 12:17 pm

   I, too, find that this article was a more balanced approach to searching for help with dog training. After many years living with my dog, and I am not a dog expert, I have found that Cesar’s philosophy about calm and assertive energy really helps. I have also found myself being more of an observer when it comes to my dog rather than a reactor which I was in the beginning. Even though I am not sold on reward based dog training, I’m not convinced that correction dog training is the only way to go. I do believe each dog and each situation demands a more thoughtful approach. I have found “one size” does not always fit every dog or owner. I have also found that the personality and age of the dog based on his temperment and breed also plays a factor in how I approach each situation (my dog is half beagle and half german shepherd–but the beagle side tends to dominate). In short, I find that keeping an open mind helps.

   Reply
4. Dylan says:

   August 16, 2012 at 8:33 pm

   That was a fair and balanced article, those are hard to find, I enjoyed it thanks. But being an opinionated person, I just had to add my two cents worth. I, too, feel that Mr. Millan does a lot of good, bad and ugly. His work with pit bulls just can not be overlooked. He fights breed bans, he has his own ‘pit bull ambassadors’ that show just how good the breed is and that is to be commended. He also urges people to take responsibility for their dogs, which surprisingly, a lot of people don’t seem to understand that before they get dogs.
   That said, I work as a pet care manager for Petsmart so I see a lot of people in the store, many of which have unruly dogs. The vast majority of people who I see using his techniques–the finger jab, the “tsssh” noise, lightly kicking them in the stomach, etc– most of the time it doesn’t work. So they keep doing it. I see people stubbornly using methods often and repeatedly that just don’t work because “Cesar does it.” That may be fine and well, but what works for one dog won’t always work for another.
   As for the training equipment you mentioned. The dogs that I consistently see who pull the most are those who are wearing choke chains and prong collars. Dogs wearing these corrective measures are often the most unruly, they are pulling, lunging and jumping while the owner is exasperated and yelling trying to get their dogs under control. Of course dogs in harness and collars can be just as unruly, but they’re not wearing any corrective collars either.
   I don’t think I’ve ever heard Mr. Millan issue a warning about such collars, including his own. The trainer at our store has mentioned quite a few times that the choker can be incredibly dangerous and I’ve found that this site (http://www.adogsview.net/Dominance-Theory.html and http://www.adogsview.net/Types-of-Collars.html) has a lot of helpful information on collars and dominance theory. It goes into great detail about the dangers of training collars.
   Often, the dogs that I see that are the best behaved (and don’t get me wrong, we see a lot of truly good dogs in the store) are those wearing a simple nylon or leather collar who’s owners are calm. No muzzles, no training collars, just calm well behaved dogs. Sometimes the owners won’t even have them on leash, but will just walk around the store while the dog follows along behind.
   I also think that people need to be warned about just how dangerous some (not all) of his methods can be in the wrong hands, I remember several years ago lab died at his facility because he was walking on a treadmill while wearing a choker. (http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm) To be fair, Mr. Millan was not personally training the dog but it happened at his facility by a trainer using his methods.
   I think that overall, Cesar Millan is a mixed bag, he does tremendous good but also does things that can be harmful. I know that for me, personally, I would never use those methods on my dogs. My three dogs are my world and they deserve the very best I can give them. And I just don’t believe that the best is out dated methodology.

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     August 17, 2012 at 1:29 pm

     Thanks for the articles, they were a good read.

     My three dogs are my world and they deserve the very best I can give them.

     Yeah, that really is it. I feel the same way about my furry companions.

     It is too bad that convenience and ego are often prioritized over quality of life for the dog. Still, I have seen many people who would do just about anything for their dogs.

     During one of my vet visits, this guy came in on an old motorcycle. He only had $60 left on him, but he was willing to spend it all on the more expensive wet food, that his dog likes. It is amazing to see people who are willing to go with less for themselves, so that their dog can have more.
5. raymond says:

   July 22, 2012 at 10:32 am

   i have a 15 month old newfoundlander, he weights about 170lbs,we walk every nite,well he walks i am in a wheelchair and i push myself,i made a harness on my chair for when he pulls to hard i can hold the wheels, but now he is pulling the chair even with the wheels locked and the other nite the chair flipped over and he was still pulling,i could not stop him, my question is , should i have him on a chocker chain ?
   thank you

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     July 23, 2012 at 11:31 am

     Choke chains are mainly used to deliver collar corrections (leash jerks). When the dog does something undesirable, the leash is jerked with a ‘right’ amount of force. This delivers a certain amount of pain to the dog’s neck and also a choking sensation. If applied with the right timing, force, and direction, the pain and choking discourages the dog from repeating the given behavior.

     Dogs are more sensitive and have less protection higher up on their necks. This is why placing a choke collar high up on a dog’s neck allows us to deliver more pain, given the same amount of force.

     More on collar corrections.

     Some people suggest using a head-halti to control pulling from large dogs. The head-halti redirects the head of the dog, similar to the way in which a head halter is used to control horses. The head-halti can be effective at preventing pulling, but it can be difficult to use properly. Incorrect use may cause physical harm to the dog. Some people also suggest that the halti may place undue stress to the back of the dog’s head.

     There are many other methods for leash training a dog, and a variety of other equipment. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Which is most appropriate will depend on-
     1. Our dog.
     2. What we want for our dog.
     3. What we expect from our dog.

     Here is more on leash training methods-
     http://shibashake.com/dog/leash-training-your-dog

     Here is more on leash training equipment, including choke chains and the head halti-
     http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-leash-training-equipment
6. nancy boucher says:

   June 13, 2012 at 6:40 pm

   we have no dogs and my husband and i loved watching caesar..he is a natural…his clearest contribution i felt was his ability to communicate how critically important it is to understand the function of a dog’s behavior before deciding how to proceed…he was intuitive …i was a special education teacher in the areas of behavior and curriculum for over 25 years and the heart of what i learned from my students is that i needed to take the time to understand if the function of their maladaptive behaviors were negative reinforcement / (escape / avoidance behaviors) or positive reinforcement (attention needs etc. met)…caesar had that down pat and there never was a question for us that his love of dogs guided his work…he may have things to learn still..but it is too bad that people spend time dissing him when he is doing work from his heart

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     June 14, 2012 at 9:01 am

     Dear Nancy,

     Clearly any kind of dissing on anybody is unfortunate.

     diss, dis [dɪs] – Slang chiefly US to treat (someone) with contempt
     ~~The Free Dictionary

     Being contemptuous of others just to boost our own ego never ends up well for anyone.

     However, I find that discussion of the various dog training techniques are beneficial and useful. Scientific studies are also very useful because it grounds those techniques in a more rigorous and repeatable process. By discussing the risks and benefits of the different techniques, we can make better decisions for our own dogs.

     There will be many different opinions, but there is nothing wrong with differing opinions when it is expressed in a civil fashion and in the spirit of learning.
7. Katie says:

   May 13, 2012 at 8:05 am

   I don’t like how Cesar uses so much negative reinforcement to correct the dogs. When the dogs get worked up on the leash, he teaches us to be aggressive and pull on the leash while feeling calm, but you could also just calmly tell the dog “it’s okay” or “let’s go” and change directions. You don’t have to jerk the dog, just psychologically calm the dog (like he always talks about). I think in the long run, getting a dog to trust you is better than getting a dog to fear you.

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     May 14, 2012 at 10:50 am

     You don’t have to jerk the dog, just psychologically calm the dog (like he always talks about).

     Very good point.
8. Sally says:

   April 13, 2012 at 6:09 pm

   I recently got my first dog from a rescue organization, although I have been around dogs my whole life. Before bringing home my dog Ares, I read everything about training and adjusting the dog to my lifestyle. I didn’t need to worry, he’s a very laid-back dog. I have to say that while I don’t need to use any of Cesar’s aversion techniques, except for the occasional tug on the leash, I see nothing wrong with it. Reading his books, he never advocates hitting the dog and usually when he uses the alpha roll it’s only with aggressive dogs and seeing that some of the dogs were going to be put down, it seems that a moment of mild discomfort, that once the dog learns the behavior will never have to be repeated, is hardly worth all the hub-bub. Although, by no means an expert and as I said, I just got my first dog, but I do work with dogs at rescue organizations and the problem I have w/ reward-based systems is that they take a greater amount of understanding, than Cesar’s method, in that you can get a dog that will only come or obey when you have treats in hand. Having watched Cesar’s show, and believe me, I’m as strong an animal activist as they come, I have never been like, Cesar is so cruel how could he do that, the training is always quick and decisive and as soon as the behavior stops, Cesar stops. That being said, I also want to point out that the show is not meant to substitute doing your own research, asking vets, trainers etc. before using any equipment or obedience methods. I thought your article was well written, but I must respectfully disagree with you regarding Cesar’s methods.

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     April 14, 2012 at 2:03 pm

     the show is not meant to substitute doing your own research, asking vets, trainers etc.

     That is exactly right. In fact, I think that Millan also agrees, which is why he says -

     Do not attempt the techniques you are about to see without consulting a professional.

     Unfortunately, we are probably in the minority.

     In terms of aversive techniques, you may find these articles to be interesting-
     http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/if-youre-aggressive-your-dog-will-be-too-says-veterinary-study-university-pennsylvania
     http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/implications-of-punishment.php

     As for reward training, a common misconception is that it is only about using food. This is false. Reward training is actually more about controlling a dog’s resources and using *all* of these resources to motivate him. It may be food, toys, freedom, access to people, access to space, attention, affection, etc. Here is an article on operant conditioning and dog training.
9. Richard Marvin says:

   March 4, 2012 at 7:38 am

   This is not a comment but a problem. We have 4 Carine Terriers 3 male 1female. Two of the boys are fixed and so is the female. The boys pee in the house and the have a dog door. It’s not always in the same place. This started prior to getting are last male which is not fixed at this time. We don’t know what to do because, we can’t catch them in the act Need help

   Reply
   • shibashake says:

     March 5, 2012 at 7:36 am

     Hmmm, were they all fully potty trained previously?

     It could be that one of them started to mark, which will encourage the others to mark as well. I would probably go back to potty training basics. With my own dogs I do close supervision, crate training, and also catch them in the act.

     A common way that dogs learn is through associative learning, which makes it necessary to catch them in the act in order to teach them that certain behaviors are undesirable.
10. Jackie Roberts says:

    February 29, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    I am now retired, but had been a dog instructure for 30 yrs. I believe the Dog Whisperer to be a breath of fresh air. I can’t believe it when I hear from different dog owners, and some at the RSPCA, that his methods are wrong & even cruel.
    I say to them, how many dogs has he saved because of his understanding of dogs. I am now in my late 50′s, but as a teenager, I also used the same methods, but mine were simply based on mother to pup behaviour, & dog to dog. It has always annoyed me, when breed owners see their dogs as that breed, not as a dog, and certainly not as a human. Give the dog back it’s dignity by at least allowing it to fullfil it’s life as a canine.
    There is a reason there are so many dog attacks on people, if listened to Cesar there wouldn’t be…..

    Reply
    • shibashake says:

      February 29, 2012 at 4:03 pm

      I agree that dogs are not human, and by the same token, humans are not dogs.

      As for why dogs get aggressive, there are many studies on this.
      http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/if-youre-aggressive-your-dog-will-be-too-says-veterinary-study-university-pennsylvania
11. Roswitha says:

    February 17, 2012 at 7:58 am

    Hello out there

    I sincerely thank you for your unbiased article on Cesar Millan. (I am not quite sure how long ago it was written.) Because by watching his show he brought back what I seemingly lost long ago. But first, let me myself: I am 49 years old, a Swiss pet dog owner with an intense interest in dog behaviour and methods to influence behaviour for as long as I can remember. I am not a professional dog trainer, dog owners make me mad most of the time. I do believe myself very knowledgeable about dogs in a good way because I am always open to new ways, better ways, dog friendlier ways and I always rejected ideas that make dogs feel intimidated over and over again. Myself I was never punished for anything by my parents but, alas, emotionally neglected. That gave me a unique attitude to “leadership”, “positive reinforcement (attention)” and so forth. And punishment to me is just a way to hurt someone, releasing my own tension and giving me a bad feeling afterward, me as the punisher.

    I am very much into scientific studies and learning theories and it helped me a lot to find new ways to handle my dogs live for the last 40 years. I first implemented clicker training for behaviour issues 12 years ago (do not kill the new kitten, stop chasing and nipping at joggers). Redirecting behaviour with a well practiced positive power recall, do not run after horses, run to get your ball instead. All these things were great. But I missed something, it kind of felt artificial. The whole relationship with dogs got more complicated, more scientific, more difficult to explain to people what to do when their dogs showed problems.

    On the other hand I have wondered for many years why I could solve so many problems by just rewarding the dogs in difficult situations and when I recommended it to others, most failed or told me it’s not working. I should have gotten the clue when someone said: By nature, you’re dominant. So you can do all this stuff and get good results because basically the dogs want to please or appease you. What do I do? Hit them? Choke them? NOOO. I just don’t interact when they want me to and stuff like that. By nature, because I do not like to be molested. Furthermore I act calmly in difficult situations or calmly-joyful in potentially confusing situations, e.g. running yelling children, loud noises and stuff. I never ever had leash aggression issues in 40 years, yeapp, I started out on “my own” at the tender age of 9, my family never was into dogs. I never ever let dogs solve problems on their own when another dog aggressed. I protected them with my body and sometimes threw pebbles to stop advancing aggressive dogs. But I hardly ever encountered irresponsible dog owners, so I guess I have been lucky so far as well. But I degress.

    Now, thanks to Cesar Millan, I finally realized the difference to what I do and the others don’t. No method can really work if you do not project calmness and remove yourself emotionally from the picture until your dog ist relaxed again. Call it leadership, call it calm-assertiveness, call it professionalism, whatever. But if you do not get that, you do not achieve anything close to lasting behaviour changes. Before I realized this I always said: for every method you will always find a dog for which it works. But that is not the cause, this is the wrong interpretation. It more often than not is the owners attitude and of course his willingness to persevere, that make the method work.

    Naturally, everything I do or did can be labelled with the well known definitions of disenzitation, habituation, positive reinforcement and so on but it could also be labelled leadership, parenting, dominance. DOES IT MATTER?

    So there was and is the hue and cry about Millan abusing dogs. I do think: Yes, unfortunately, very rarely he does. But in the majority of cases he just has absolutely fabulous ideas how to change the dogs brain from releasing stress through aggression to staying calm and relaxed. This transition is naturally unpleasant when you force the dog, because the brain is well used to its ways and has no other option as yet. It has to be find a new way to react. On the other hand you can go straight into the situation and redirect the dogs behaviour. You do not have to manage every and all situations as in positive training. But everything is out the window when you get emotionally involved. That is the real message. Worse outcomes when you use force of course, than with positive reeinforcement, which does not hurt so much. But it is detrimental for the dog nonetheless, because it cannot change then.

    What I wondered about most is, why do positive trainers abhor Cesar so strongly? Why should he have such a detrimental effect on how people handle their dogs? My answer is: The positive trainers and the dominance embracing people do absolutely the same: They hardly listen or see what really happens.

    The dominance folks just want to realize: jerk, hit, push, alpha roll, prong collar, choke chain – GREAT ! and fall into the categorie where dogs are obviously under great stress, start to aggress even more and in the end are euthanized after a rather long time of suffering. Because strong aggression is a form of suffering to me and to cope with an aggressiv owner to boot must be hell !! The others? The positive trainers? They are prejudiced as well and strongly edit the episodes, pic on sequences of stress and most often ignore the long term outcome or claim the makers of the show to manipulate the viewers (which of course they obviously do, quite often). So these good people get worried, upset, sad and feel helpless or fight back with all their might.

    To call Cesar backwards to me is an offense. He just uses popular words but what he does is anything but. Through him I regained the most profound feeling of togetherness with my dogs. I have not changed much. I will keep on introducing new stimulus by wordless click/treat. And train them with positive reinforcement as well. I will continue to help them through exciting and unsure situations so they do not have to aggress.

    BUT: Thanks to Cesar I am now even more able to help them to cope with our complicated world by beeing intentionally calm and assertive. I basically was by nature, but I lost it gradually whilst getting older and more into positive reinforcement. Combining calm-assertiveness with positive reinforcement is a gift to me and taking it further by claiming space with my body (the Cesar Way) I give my dogs new solutions to solve old problems !! (Malinois aged 10 und Schipperke almost 8)

    Further, the idea of “The Walk” was always antagonizing me until I saw Cesar doing it. That is a different story from the olden days, a different story from mere compulsion training. Which I adamently refused to do anyway. This really is being “in the zone”. My little Schipperke walks like a real trooper, head high, tail high, next to me, when I get into the “let’s make the Cesar Walk”-mode. My Belgian Malinois gives me the same attitude, no unwanted agitation, just focus. It really becomes a pack-thing. We are a team then. In sync. But I would not do it for more than 10 – 15 minutes at a time. I am only sorry that Cesar so seldom emphasizes when it is time to let the dog sniff and just relax.

    Exercise, discipline, affection?
    Where I live in Switzerland I am able to walk my dogs off leash 90% of the time, I walk them THREE TIMES A DAY for app. 7 miles total, until recently we jogged 3times a week. Some nose games several times a week are mandatory. I am not an exception. This is almost recommanded for dog owners as far as I know. Switzerland banished prong collars 20 years ago, choke chains are frowned upon, e-collars are forbidden. In the US people worry about Millan and happily choke their fearful “best friends”, further traumatize them with prong collars!?!? Well, that shoked me !!

    There never were more dog schools to train your dog where I live, most dogs know basic obedience but dog owners are highly confused by all these positive demeanor. They do not know anymore what to do when a dog starts behaving badly and therefore get themselves upset, start to shout, shower the dogs with meaningless commands and make the situations worse. They do not learn anything about how to primarily influence their dog on an emotional level. And that is what Cesar teaches absolutely to perfection. If you have the ability to see and to listen and to really practice what he preaches: calm-assertivenes not loud yelling *smile*. Then he becomes a true treasure even if he might not be a pack leader because there is no pack, just individuals living together – right? *smile*

    Roswitha
    with Malinois,Schipperke and 5 nicely behaved Persian Cats

    Reply
    • shibashake says:

      February 18, 2012 at 9:08 am

      Hello Roswitha,

      Thanks for sharing your dog training experiences with us.

      It more often than not is the owners attitude and of course his willingness to persevere, that make the method work.

      That is very well said. As you say, it is unfortunate that there is so much nastiness whenever people discuss the various dog training methods and philosophies. For me, it is very simple. I want to make the best decisions for my dogs. As such, I try to get as much information and scientific data as I can, and I also try my hardest to understand what my dogs are saying to me.

      In general, it matters little to me whether Cesar Millan, Victoria Stilwell, Ian Dunbar, or some other personality is best or more right. What I care about are the methods themselves, and how my dogs respond to them. In the end, the personalities that matter most to me are my dogs.

      The positive trainers and the dominance embracing people do absolutely the same: They hardly listen or see what really happens.

      Yeah, I agree. When it comes to bringing up a dog, our ego usually plays a big role. When ego comes into play, being right is more important than listening to our dogs, and doing what is best for them.

      There is so much discussion of dominance in dog training, but so little discussion of empathy, which I think is much more important. Empathy is important in human relationships, and it is important in dog relationships. In her book “Inside of a Dog” Alexandra Horowitz talks about the “umvelt” of a dog (world of a dog). In my opinion, that is one of the most important aspects of establishing a good relationship with our dogs – understanding their “umvelt”, their needs and goals, how they view the world, and how they interact with the world.

      Then, we can help them fulfill their needs and goals, and help everyone achieve a good quality of life. Dogs don’t need much, if we would only listen; as they listen so well to us and our needs.
12. alania Keymel says:

    November 7, 2011 at 3:31 pm

    I have a question I want to find a balanced rottie or pit bull or a great Dane rescue to train them for a service dog for me cause I have migraines and fibromyalgia two knee replacements my balance is a problem and my migraines effect my sight can u help

    Reply
    • shibashake says:

      November 9, 2011 at 7:54 am

      I don’t think I will be much help here as I have little experience with service dogs. This site seems to have some very useful information on finding an appropriate service dog -
      http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/node/262
13. Lesa in Delaware says:

    September 20, 2011 at 11:54 am

    Hi,

    I just wanted to say that its nice to see a discussion that doesnt include “bad mouthing” Ceasar Millan. You made so many good points and I commend you on doing so. As a lifetime dog trainer myself I just wanted to add to some of the things you discussed. The biggest problem that I encounter on a daily basis is the inability of dog owners to avoid humans from treating their dogs like people. Dogs DO NOT rationalize as we do…no matter how much you think they do. They react to your own body language and tone and a condtioning response we give them. Every time your dog acts crazy and you pet and say “ok, its ok” you are totally praising bad behavior. So their conditioned response when they see you is to act in that way that gets them praise. Alot of the big pet stores treat train. The dog isnt thinking about “oh Im sitting yay!” Its thinking “I want that treat-its food” and will do the “trick” as I call it. Dog behavior and the Ceasar methods work the instinctive insides of a dog. He isnt harsh, he isnt mean, he is acting like a dog would act. I tell my clients to watch wolf behavior. The way they interact with each other and you will find a lot of simular behavior in your own dog. Dogs are family memebers to us, we are a pack to them only. You mentioned Ceasar not talking about equipment enough. Im glad that he doesnt because Ive seen it MANY times in my career. You show how to use a leather collar-you train the owner, the dog. But at the end of the day-most dog owners are lazy and will NOT follow what you teach no matter HOW long you talk about it. Its been my most frustrating issue with dog owners over the years. I believe that is why he doesnt emphasize it. Plus, in the long run, equipment shouldnt determine your dog. Behavior and respcet should. Lastly, people wanting dogs should really really research breed based on their own lifestyles. Ive seen numerous cases with clients who picked a dog because it was cute. If you are a person who cannot walk a dog at a fast pace or get involved in agility type activity-please please please do NOT get a border collie type breed. If you are a timid person, please please please do not get a pitbull, a bulldog, a rottweiller, or a mastiff because you want protection. It NEVER EVER works out in the end. Cheers and have a great day!

    Reply
    • shibashake says:

      September 21, 2011 at 10:55 am

      Dear Lesa,

      Yes, I definitely agree that we shape a dog’s behavior through operant conditioning techniques. In operant conditioning, there are two classes of techniques – reward techniques (positive reinforcement and negative punishment) and aversive techniques (negative reinforcement and positive punishment).

      As you know, reward training does not just include giving treats. Reward training includes both positive reinforcement and negative punishment techniques. Positive reinforcement is used to reinforce desirable behaviors and negative punishment is used to discourage bad behaviors. According to dog psychology and dog behavior, both reward and aversive methods can be used to both encourage good behaviors and stop bad behaviors.

      As you say, dogs are not humans. Similarly, humans are not dogs. When we try to bite a dog’s neck with our fingers, the dog does not suddenly think that we are a dog or even a mama dog.

      Rather, we are applying an aversive stimulus to a sensitive part of the dog (his neck). If we apply that stimulus with the right timing and the right force, then we will get an aversive response from the dog and he will be discouraged from performing a given behavior.

      A very common aversive stimulus is pain. Leash corrections, for example, ‘work’ by applying a pain stimulus.

      But at the end of the day-most dog owners are lazy and will NOT follow what you teach no matter HOW long you talk about it.

      I agree that it can be a challenge to convince people to change. However, I also believe that most people love their dogs very much, so if they see that changing their ways is important and will result in significant positive results, then they will make the effort to change.

      As you say however, it can be difficult to execute certain methods well, which is why aversive methods are risky. When not applied properly, aversive techniques can cause aggression, stress, and degrade quality of life. Similarly, using the wrong equipment on the wrong dog can cause bad results.

      Lastly, people wanting dogs should really really research breed based on their own lifestyles.

      That is true and I agree.
14. jude medina says:

    December 15, 2010 at 11:35 am

    awesome trainer

    Reply
15. DreamLibrarian says:

    August 24, 2010 at 6:31 pm

    I am preparing to become a dog owner, and have been reading a lot about living with dogs, including watching The Dog Whisperer. Just tonight I found your website, and look forward to .

    I must take issue with your cavalier reference to the Penn 2009 study on aversive techniques. If one reads the linked article, it becomes clear that the “aversive techniques” used by the dog owners are clearly NOT techniques that responsible trainers using aversive techniques would use: 43% HIT the dog, for heavens’ sake! It’s irresponsible on your part to equate without qualification the “aversive techniques” used by Millan and other trainers with “aversive techniques” used by desperate nd/ignorant dog owners.

    That said I look forward to reading your other blogs. I always appreciate it when people approach topics, especially controversial ones, with an open mind and balanced attitude.

    Reply
    • shibashake says:

      August 24, 2010 at 10:09 pm

      “In total, 140 surveys were collected. The researchers found that the most commonly used methods of training included such aggressive techniques as hitting the dog (43 percent), growling at the dog (41 percent) and physically forcing the dog onto its back (31 percent). This, despite the fact that these techniques showed the tendency to produce the direct opposite response owners sought. A quarter of the dogs trained with aversive techniques showed aggressive behavior in response. ” ~~[Questions about ‘aversive’ training]

      Note – the percentages add up to more than 100% because some people do multiple of these things.

      As described in the paragraph above, these were the aversive techniques most commonly used by dog owners in the survey.

      Here is another excerpt from the article -
      “But according to a new study from Penn’s School of Veterinary Science, Millan’s approach may not be quite so effective as he makes it out to be. In fact, the study suggests “firm” discipline—and so-called “aversive” discipline techniques, in which dogs are corrected using aggressive measures—may actually backfire, making dogs more likely to lash out at other dogs, people and even their owners.”

      According to the study, published in the journal Applied Animal Behavior Science, 25 percent of dogs trained with “aversive” techniques react to their training with an aggressive response of their own. Dogs trained in a more positive, encouraging manner, by contrast, showed almost no aggressive behavior.
      ~~[Questions about ‘aversive’ training]

      Perhaps you are questioning the study itself, in which case it is best to take it up with the behavioral scientists and their students at UPenn.

      Indeed neither I nor the study say that aversive techniques will never work. However, the results show that they are risky and can cause more behavioral issues.

      There are also studies on the use of shock collars and choke collars.

      Congratulations on your new future dog.
16. shibashake says:

    February 19, 2010 at 9:26 am

    Hello Christina,
    Thanks for your very well thought out comment.

    You are absolutely right that aversive techniques can work. This has been proven by many years of study in animal psychology. Both reward techniques and aversive techniques can be used to modify dog behavior.

    However, aversive techniques are a lot more risky. As you say, it needs to be applied with the right timing, right technique, right energy, and on the right dog. Applying aversive techniques, especially physical aversive techniques on the wrong dog will bring bad results for both dog and owner.

    Every single episode commercial break return warns not to attempt these techniques without the help of a professional.

    This message is a stroke of genius. It allows the show to feature more risky aversive techniques without putting the network and others at risk for any financial or personal liability.

    To me, it is a strange message. Which techniques should I not attempt? Some of them? All of them? In that case, is the show only for entertainment and I should just ignore everything that Millan says?

    Millan is charismatic, and a very effective communicator. I think it is only natural that we will follow the advice of someone whom we respect and who comes across as so effective over the t.v.. I see people alpha rolling their dogs here, there, everywhere – often times for exhibiting normal dog behavior.

    As for causing discomfort or unpleasant sensations for the dog, I think that this is a teaching tool for any situation. If we get a speeding ticket in our adult life, it causes a degree of discomfort.

    Very interesting example! A speeding ticket, to me, is more like a reward technique – you are taking away a resource – i.e. money or freedom to drive from someone who is exhibiting an undesirable driving behavior.

    This is very different in my mind compared to a physical aversive technique. There, you are adding an aversive stimulus – often pain – to deter a behavior.

    A “bite” with the hand that Cesar utilizes hardly causes true pain to my dogs, when they play with one another they use more force than that.

    You bring up a very good point here – physical aversive techniques are often based on the degree of force applied. Too little force, and the dog will just ignore it, too much force and the dog will become overly stressed and be unable to learn. The degree of pain felt by the dog, I imagine, will be based on the temperament of the dog and the level of force applied.

    Some sensitive people ‘feel pain’ when others may not. Some dogs get very stressed even from a yell and no physical touch at all. Pain/stress is relative.

    You are right that a tap can be used to startle someone if it is wholly unexpected – but this would only work if you use the tap very rarely. The ability to startle is quickly lost in cases where the ‘touch’ is used over and over again. In those cases, it is the amount of ‘force’ that matters.

    I write more about the magical touch here is you are interested …
    http://shibashake.com/dog/the-squirrel-instinct-can-it-be-retrained

    Also dogs have great control over the placement and force of their bites. When they are young, they learn what level of force is appropriate during play because if they hurt their siblings, there is a squeal and play stops. Through this process dogs learn bite inhibition which is a very useful skill to have.

    He encourages with alpha rolls to make it a pleasant experience for the dog once calm-submissive.

    Your comment really made me think and it made me realize that people’s opinions on dog training techniques are often highly determined by their own experiences with their dogs – that is only natural. You have had great success with alpha rolls etc – and so in your experience they are a useful and effective tool. I, on the other hand, have had bad experiences with aversive methods and so I have a negative perception of them.

    It is just not possible to stay truly objective when it comes to our dogs – similar to our kids.

    One thing we can do though is to look to scientific studies that have been conducted on dogs and other animals.

    Another thing that has been interesting for me is to also look at what different dog-breed communities say about the techniques in general. There definitely seems to be a general slant towards or against the techniques depending on type of breed.

    This makes sense because certain breeds have temperaments that are very unsuited towards aversive methods – including truly stubborn and truly independent breeds.

    Aversive techniques can work. If they didn’t work at all – there would be no issues because nobody would use them. The question, I think, is not whether aversive techniques work but whether there are alternative techniques that work better.

    Thanks for the very interesting discussion.

    Reply
17. Christina says:

    February 17, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    Hi! I think your blog did a pretty good job on the “goods” but I do disagree with a couple of your points on the “bads.” Re: point 1, I agree. Cesar doesn’t leave much wiggle room. On point #2, I strongly disagree. Cesar says all the time in his shows that most problems aren’t with the dogs, its with the owners. I enjoy watching him listen to an owner that he thinks is out of their minds as submissive to their dogs, especially the amusement you can see when he’s addressing owners of territorial or aggressive toy breeds. Point 3 is accurate, he doesn’t spend much time on equipment. And point 4, also pretty accurate. Point 5 of downplaying the role of “aversive training methods.” Every single episode commercial break return warns not to attempt these techniques without the help of a professional. I agree with you that you have to know your dog and let common sense prevail in this area. As for causing discomfort or unpleasant sensations for the dog, I think that this is a teaching tool for any situation. If we get a speeding ticket in our adult life, it causes a degree of discomfort. A “bite” with the hand that Cesar utilizes hardly causes true pain to my dogs, when they play with one another they use more force than that. He encourages with alpha rolls to make it a pleasant experience for the dog once calm-submissive.

    I have used his techniques to great success in my formerly “incorrigable, unsocialized, fearfully aggressive” dog. I am happy to report that Cesar’s methods when applied consistently over time worked wonders for him. He is more than happy to offer his belly for a rub now, has a very happy life with his fur sister and fur cousins, when he’d previously been unable to be anywhere near other dogs d/t his aggression. He formerly couldn’t be around anyone but our family members as he’d bitten guests, and he’s now free to roam the house when company is present. I could go on about his success but I will stop there. Suffice it to say thanks to Cesar, we have a much happier family with our dog who we had been considering euthanizing prior to his rehabilitation. He was a major liability and is now a well-adjusted member of our family. And yes, the original problem was me, his owner and my fears that traveled down the leash to him!

    Reply
18. The Blue Cross says:

    December 15, 2009 at 7:04 am

    UK animal welfare, behaviour, training and veterinary organisations1 are warning of the possible dangers of using techniques for training dogs that can cause pain and fear, such as some of those seen used by Cesar Millan, who has announced a UK tour next year.

    The organisations have joined forces to voice their serious concerns about techniques which pose welfare problems for dogs and significant risk to owners who may copy them. These concerns are shared, and the statement supported, by similar organisations around the world2 and in continental Europe3.

    Aversive training techniques, which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan, are based on the principle of applying an unpleasant stimulus to inhibit behaviour. This kind of training technique can include the use of prong collars, electric shock collars, restricting dogs’ air supply using nooses/leads or pinning them to the ground, which can cause pain and distress. The use of such techniques may compromise the welfare of dogs and may worsen the behavioural problems they aim to address, potentially placing owners at considerable risk. A number of scientific studies have found an association between the use of aversive training techniques and the occurrence of undesired behaviours in dogs.

    1 Dogs Trust, The Blue Cross, Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA), The Blue Dog, Wood Green Animal Shelters, World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA), The Kennel Club, Raystede Centre for Animal Welfare, Canine Partners, UK , Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour (ASAB), Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC), Association of Pet Dog Trainers, UK (APDT, UK), UK Registry of Canine Behaviours (UKRCB), Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group (CABTSG), British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) and British Veterinary Association (BVA).

    2 Australian Veterinary Association (AVA), Australian Veterinary Behaviour Interest Group (AVBIG), American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB), American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) and The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers, Inc. (CCPDT)(USA).

    3 European Society of Clinical Veterinary Ethology (ESCVE), European College of Veterinary Behavioural Medicine – Companion Animals (ECVBM-CA), the Flemish Veterinary Working Group on Ethology (VDWE) and Norwegian Association for Pet Behaviour (NAPB) Norsk Atferdsgruppe for Selskapsdyr (NAS).

    The organisations believe that the use of such training techniques is not only unacceptable from a welfare perspective, but that this type of approach is not necessary for the modification of dog behaviour. Dog trainers all over the UK use reward-based methods to train dogs very effectively. Where dogs have behaviours which owners find unacceptable, such as aggression or destruction, qualified behaviourists achieve long term changes in behaviour through the use of established and validated techniques of behaviour modification without subjecting dogs to training techniques which may cause pain or distress.

    We urge dog owners to carefully consider the help they choose to train their dogs or tackle behavioural problems. Anyone can call themselves a behaviour expert, but we believe that only those with a combination of appropriate qualifications, up to date knowledge as well as skills and experience should be treating dogs, and should only do so in a way which does not put the welfare of the dogs at risk.

    Further information on:

    • the misconceptions which underlie the use of aversive training techniques

    • the development of behaviour in dogs

    • the problems associated with the use of aversive training techniques

    • finding a suitable trainer or behaviourist

    can be found at: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

    Reply
19. shibashake says:

    November 28, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    Hi Amanda,

    I do firmly believe that each dog is different, and each dog has to be trained differently.

    Very well said. As long as we are flexible, and keep our dog’s interests and needs as our top priority, everything should work out well.

    I personally refuse to use a choker collar on my dogs, and would rather exert the extra hours of training and practise to achieve my goals with my dogs.

    I feel the same way.

    Sadly dogs have very few rights and protections in our laws. Even if they are attacked by another dog, there is very little we can do. And certainly they have almost no rights when it comes to a human.

    Reply
20. Amanda says:

    November 27, 2009 at 9:46 am

    I have a pitbull, a pitbull PUG mix, and a basset hound.

    With my Pitbull I found that treat training caused him to be way more excitable and very difficult to work with. I adopted some of Cesars methods “the Shh” and the use of the “finger nip”. I have found that using the shh and hand nip seems to work incredibly well with him as long as it is properly timed and applied,(if I’m off by a few seconds he just seems confused) and I have now gotten to a training level with him where I am using him for hearding as well as starting his training as a search and rescue dog.

    With the pit mix I’ve used treat and affection trainig- With him I have also adopted some of Cesars methods- and again they have worked well. The use of a treadmill, the “shh”.

    I do firmly believe that each dog is different, and each dog has to be trained differently. I personally refuse to use a choker collar on my dogs, and would rather exert the extra hours of training and practise to achieve my goals with my dogs.

    Great job on writing such a great article.

    Reply
21. shibashake says:

    July 30, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    Hello SPr!te !s mY f@voRitE
    Thanks for dropping by. And no need to apologize – there are lots of comments so I am sure nobody reads through all of them. And I appreciate all comments, so it is never too late to leave one.

    “Reenforcment, in my opinion, is meant for tricks, not for rehabilitation.”

    I think many people think this from watching Cesar Millan. However, reward techniques can be used to both train good behaviors (what you call tricks) and to stop bad behaviors (what you call rehabilitation). Even Cesar Millan will sometimes use food in his rehabilitation process.

    Both reward techniques (which most people associate with food but it is much more than that) and aversive techniques (leash corrections, alpha rolls) are based on a behavioral psychology process called conditioning.

    Here is an article of mine on dog psychology and conditioning that may be of interest -

    It deals with conditioning as well as what you call nature’s methods, etc.

    “A touch or a yank on the collar at the wrong time is not going to send the dog into a deadly and irreversable state of mind”
    Studies show that aversive methods when used incorrectly can encourage even more aggression in dogs whereas reward methods did not encourage any aggression.

    “If people are dumb enough to missenterpret what is said than shame on people”
    Nobody is perfect and people will always make mistakes. When people make mistakes in dog training, it is often the dogs that pay the price for those mistakes. Aversive techniques are a lot more risky than reward techniques and that should at least be mentioned so that people understand the risks that they are taking with themselves and their dogs.

    And you definitely made a lot of sense even at 2 am in the morning Happy summer.

    Reply
22. SPr!te !s mY f@voRitE says:

    July 29, 2009 at 6:43 am

    Ok, I didn’t read all of the comments, so I’m probably repeating what has already been said. I also apologize for commenting so late. I just feel the need to say something. Here is goes…
    I am a big fan of Cesar Millan and his ideas (etc.). As for positive reenforcement, when the dog achieves a calm and submissive state, he/she is reenforced with affection which he/she has earned. Reenforcment, in my opinion, is meant for tricks, not for rehabilitation. Again (I havent really read any replies from you over this subject) at the beginning of the show, it is stated that you should consult a professional blah blah blah, you know what I mean. Therefore people who are using his methods on unstable/aggresive dogs are not Cesar Millan, and ‘should consult a professional’. When walking a dog, I believe that the pack leader (me!) decides when he/she “stops to smell the roses” (idk). No matter what state of mind the dog is in, it can always recover. A touch or a yank on the collar at the wrong time is not going to send the dog into a deadly and irreversable state of mind. What you are calling aversive methods are methods that nature uses on dogs, but nature knows how to use them, and the dog is rewarded with a balanced state of mind. (aversive method using) Professionals are the closest we can get to nature, but affection is also given as a reward.
    “The Cesar way is not the only way”
    -Cesar Millan
    If people are dumb enough to missenterpret what is said than shame on people (lol). Cesar rewrds humans the waay he does becaus they are humans. Dogs are not humans. Dogs are dogs.
    If anything I’ve said makes no sense it is probably because I am 14 years old and it’s 2:00 a.m.. I would love to say more but I will try tommorrow when I’m not falling asleep.
    Peace Love Music
    Im going to bed.

    Reply
23. Random Person says:

    July 22, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Hey I am super busy lately. Sorry if I don’t respond very quikly. Glad to hear all is well! ttly

    Reply
24. shibashake says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Hey RP! Everything is good Glad you are still visiting HubPages from time to time.

    Reply
25. Random Person says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    What’s up??

    Reply
26. shibashake says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    Hello drhay,

    The methods used for rehabilitation and training are at their root based on behavioral psychology and operant conditioning. Both aversive methods and reward methods can be used for training and rehabilitation.

    http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-psychology-how-dogs-learn

    “You rehabilitate the dog to lower their aggression, then train them in the proper behavior.”

    http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/if-youre-aggressive-your-dog-will-be-too-says-veterinary-study-university-pennsylvania

    You are definitely right that Cesar Millan does use several reward training techniques including body blocks, and no-talk-no-touch-no-eye-contact. However, he often does not present them as reward methods.

    http://shibashake.hubpages.com/_srec/hub/Cesar-Milan-Dog-Training-the-Dog-Whisperer

    Sometimes he also uses food, but that does not happen very often. Sometimes he also speaks out against reward training and implies that such methods are only appropriate for teaching tricks and not for rehabilitation – which is not true. Both reward and aversive training are based on operant conditioning, and both can be used to shape behavior – whether it is to teach new behaviors or stop old bad ones (what you call rehabilitation).

    “but his training methods beyond that seem to be very similar to what 90% of the population does with their dogs anyway.”

    Sadly this is probably on the true side. This is because the majority of people use aversive techniques to train their dogs. Traditionally, that was the dominant paradigm used in dog training and more generally in animal training, i.e. using whips and chains on lions, tigers, and bears.

    Nowadays, experts have realized that animals including dogs perform better when they are motivated through reward methods. That is why even lions, tigers, and bears are now trained using reward methods.

    The dog training world is slowly changing, but popular trainers on television that support the use of aversive methods slow down this process.

    Reply
27. drhay says:

    July 15, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    I want to point out something that many negative posts about Cesar across the internet seem to be on the wrong track about. In Cesar’s show it is very clear that the methods he is using are for rehabilitation, not training. To me, these are very different. Most of the dogs Cesar works with are very aggressive, and for most of his clients, this aggression needs immediate rehabilitation. Rehabilitation and training are different things in my mind. You rehabilitate the dog to lower their aggression, then train them in the proper behavior. Cesar frequently advocates reward training in the Dog Whisperer, and mainly uses dominance as a source of rehabiliation. Now I’m not sure of his method for raising a dog from a puppy….but I think there is a clear misconception that Cesar only uses dominance theory when other methods might be more suitable. To sum up: Cesar seems to rehabilitate dangerous behaviors with dominance theory, but his training methods beyond that seem to be very similar to what 90% of the population does with their dogs anyway.

    Reply
28. Calmassertiv says:

    July 13, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Check out Animal Planet’s Brad Pattison beating up his student’s dog. This guy is one flaming a-hole. http://blip.tv/file/1789530/

    Reply
29. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    ” I just like to read myself write ”

    lol – you should definitely join Hub then. You can write about most things and even earn some bucks for it

    “what if the dog takes that as the owner inciting it to then bark at and charge Millan from the ground?”

    Well this would depend on why the dog is doing it. From the clip it seems that the dog is trying to keep people away from the owner woman. So the owner woman would non-mark and then body block the dog away from Millan. This way the dog learns that barking gets him removed from people. The dog should stay away for a bit, and once he is calm he can be invited back in to retry the greeting. If a dog is people aggressive, then I would do desensitization exercises on him.

    “Thanks for helping me vent”

    Glad I could help. Next time I need to vent, I’ll know where to go

    Reply
30. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    I’d never even heard of HuPages before stumbling on your site. I was just searching for DogWhisperer opinions and hit upon yours, and the chance to admire my own writing was just too good an opportunity to pass up. Some people just like to hear themselves talk — I just like to read myself write

    I think putting the little dog on the ground is not a bad idea, but what if the dog takes that as the owner inciting it to then bark at and charge Millan from the ground? If you are walking your dog and it starts barking at someone and chomping at the bit to get at the person do you then ‘put it on the ground’, so to speak, as well, in other words, let it go? The little dog wanted to charge Millan, so enabling it to do so doesn’t make it clear that that behavior is unwanted by the owner, and possibly does quite the opposite. Millan’s approach it seems to me was much less subject to misinterpretation by the dog, which clearly didn’t seem to have a problem with Millan moments later when he was holding the little bugger in His lap.

    To your walk-on-water questions 1) and 2), points well taken. As a critic of the media’s Obama-slobberfest, I can certainly see how it looks like I’m guilty of the same offense. Not seeing the entire consultations but rather just the edited TV snippets it’s hard to know if criticisms I might have are really things that are just artifacts of the editing process. I have noted to myself that some of his clients parrot back his expressions in the visit-ending summaries but it doesn’t seem like they actually comprehend the words they are echoing. Kind of like students regurgitating a political science professor’s opinions on a midterm exam because they think it will get them a passing grade, but not really thinking about what they’re spitting up. Sometimes when Millan is explaining things to some people they say ‘okay’ or ‘yes’ or ‘right’ at the end of every other of his sentences, as if they understand, but it’s clear that they Don’t understand, and he just keeps going as if they did. I would like to see him stop in these cases and back up and try again, because it’s these people who keep saying that they’re getting it that are the very ones who are Not getting it. He seems better able to read dogs than to read people in these cases.

    My lack of respect for Stillwell is due to my belief that she’s grossly ignorant, but my Disdain for her comes from the pompous attitude with which she presents her nonsense. Millan on the other hand comes across as a man with an admirable humility which allows him to really get into the heads of the people on the show, many of whom you hear describe their encounters with him as life-changing experiences. The DogTown people strike me as simple folk trying to do the right thing but just not the sharpest tools in the shed, and I would love to see Millan spend a couple of days with them or them a couple of days in LA with him, or both, because I do think they would absorb quite a bit of knowledge in the process. Stillwell wouldn’t give Millan the time of day but the DogTown folks seem like they are not at all beyond hope.

    Thanks for helping me vent. I appreciate a person adept in the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable, and hopefully am practicing the same.

    Reply
31. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    It was a Joke. Geez, lighten up. I’m curious — when you give your dogs beer, do they turn into Sleepy drunks or Obnoxious drunks?

    Back to the instantly-fixed snippy dog the clueless lady was affectionately encouraging: If you can’t see how the owner was the problem, then I give up. One of the many good things about the way Millan gets the dog to stop its bad behavior right away is that for clueless owners, just like for anyone else, Seeing Is Believing, and even for people in denial about how They might be the source of their dog’s issues it’s nigh onto impossible to stay in denial once confronted with the reality of their ‘unfixable’ dog suddenly and contentedly behaviing so Well in front of their very eyes. If you try to use some protracted reward-removal silliness you more than likely run out of time on that first and possibly only visit, and just get an owner whose denial gets re-enforcedl. If you only have one opportunity to snap the owner out of it, as it were, you have to get the dog to demonstrate the good behavior right away. These people watch the show and read the book and still don’t think it will work on THEIR cute little pumpkin, so they continue to exacerbate rather than rehabilitate, but when staring into the face of an undeniable new reality they are provided with the mental ammunition their brain seems to need to overcome the denial force that was ruling their day. Millan recognizes that to fix the dog you must fix the Owner, and really he just fixes the dog in front of the owner to show the owner that it Can Be Done, so stop making excuses for Fluffy and just do it. He knows that without fixing the owner the dog will revert back to its former state once he leaves, so the vast majority of his time is spent explaining it and showing it to Them, so They can maintain or even improve on the behavioral mods he has demonstrated. The old expression says if you can, do, if you can’t, teach, and there’s a lot of trainers out there who haven’t any idea what they’re doing, many of them with pompous academic self-described ‘credentials’, but send them to the hills for a walk surrounded by Millan’s perfectly-balanced pack and I’ll bet they end up wishing they had stayed home and thrown back a few Corona’s instead. Now That’s some reality TV I’d be willing to Pay to see…

    Burp…

    Reply
32. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    lol – Calmassertiv, You had to take the one teensy-weensy part of the episode that I disagreed with and focus on that. I really did try to find some common ground

    “because I get my rocks off being unconditionally worshipped by a Smart animal”

    Perhaps therein lies the difference between Cesar fans and those who are not – I don’t need to be worshipped at all.

    Ok I’m off to drink beers with my dogs.

    Reply
33. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    The puppy-mill episode was indeed a good one. Millan’s self-restraint when inside the devil’s den, so to speak, is something I would be hard pressed to duplicate. Being civilized to the breeder/owner who himself behaves so uncivilly towards his animals must have taken a lot of willpower on Millan’s part.

    Back to our discussion of reward vs. aversion. Note that this episode also included an interview with that lady with the little snapping dog in her lap, showering it with affection and thus encouraging its obnoxious behavior. She asks for his help, he ‘bites’ the dog a couple of times with his hand, and the dog ‘magically’, in the eyes of the lady, instantly stops the behavior she had been unknowingly rewarding for months. She is totally impressed, the dog is much happier, and the dog ends up liviing a life of affection as reward with Proper timing for its Good behavior and not Improper timing for its Bad behavior. The point Millan tries to make in several episodes is that there is a difference between calmly assertively Correcting a dog and angrily aggressively Punishing a dog. The rapidity of the effectiveness of his Correcting the lady’s dog in the lady’s own office, not hurting the dog in any way, and pointing out how it was the Lady who was actually hurting her dog Psychologically by Not correcting it, is what makes watching Millan in action so interesting. He rehabilitates dog, he Trains humans. And as he also chuckles in so many episodes, it’s the training of the Humans that takes the longest — the dogs almost always get it right away. This is why I like dogs so much — not because I get my rocks off being unconditionally worshipped by some dumb animal, but because I get my rocks off being unconditionally worshipped by a Smart animal. Even dumb blondes can get tiring after a while (although there is something certainly to be said for getting tired on occasion…)

    Reply
34. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    I am definitely against instigating/daring dogs to show aggression. I think that the best way to treat many fear issues is through a slower but more effective desensitization process where the goal is to help the dog slowly make positive associations with objects that were previously fearful or threatening. To be fair, Cesar Millan uses that same “daring” process of triggering aggression – he just follows it up with a correction.

    Truth be told, I really have nothing against Cesar Millan – the man. However, I do think that reward techniques are more appropriate for most pet dogs and they are also more appropriate and less risky in the hands of most pet owners. Yes any technique can be misapplied, and that is why education is so important. Cesar does a good job of that but at the same time he also encourages the use of aversive methods. Many of the people who use his methods do not apply them correctly. Ultimately, it is their dog that pays the price.

    I just saw the puppy mill episode of Cesar Millan and I really liked that episode. I think that Cesar Millan does not need to use any aversive methods. He does exceptionally well with just reward methods and his natural skill of reading dog body language and his own calm energy. I really liked how he helped that nervous Akita into the crate. It would be great if he did more puppy mill episodes because he gets the message out to the most number of people.

    Reply
35. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    The thing about watching these ‘evaluator’ people is that they not only can’t evaluate, but they actually create and exacerbate the very behaviors they say they don’t want. They take a starving dog, give it a bowl of food, then poke it in the face with a teasing, fearful uncertain approach, in effect Daring, just Daring the dog to assert itself in front of weak energy so as to encourage it to learn to guard its food. You (well maybe not you, but I, at least) can see that the dog is just getting Goaded Into a behavior he had no prior interest in exhibiting, in exactly the way one would use if one Wanted to Create the behavior. Then after Teaching the dog to be aggressive they say See, it’s aggressive, kill it. I’m surprised these people have brains enough to dress themselves and not make messes in the house. The kicker for me is the irresponsibility of Animal Planet’s production staff putting this stuff out like it’s supposed to be educational. Just watch Millan explain and show how he enters back-first into a fearful dog’s cage to slowly gain its trust, then take it for a relaxed and trusting walk outside for the first time in its life, as compared to these Phoenix morons giving full eye contact to the dog cowering in the corner, dragging it out terrified and deciding to kill it. Kudos to National Geographic Channel for showing Millan show how it’s supposed to be done, and shame on Animal Planet for their narrative editorial support of such ‘professional’ ignorance and ineptitude.

    You are right about the vets in NY versus Phoenix. Several NY episodes of Animal Cops have the vets rescue dogs from the brink of death, (Buddy comes to mind), investing tons of time and in an inspirational and successful effort, and I’m sure the surplus of animals applies to NY every bit as it does in Phoenix. The DogTown vet, too, goes to great length to save his dogs. Also Houston. The Phoenix story leads the viewer to believe the dog was killed for sound medical reasons, not to conserve resources. Being somewhat medically inclined I can safely say there was No valid medical reason given not to operate on that dog. If resource shortage was the issue then the narrative should have made a point of pointing that out, which it did not, so I don’t think that was why they did it.

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36. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Actually I have stopped watching the Animal Cops shows. My favorites were Detroit and NYC. The Phoenix one always had some cat up on a tree, and the people were always climbing trees – lol. I have to admit that the first time the put on the tree gear it was pretty cool – but after that I just was not too interested. The Florida one was cool for a bit because there was this crazy alligator guy who would go into a pool with the alligator without any equipment. He really has no fear. I would love to have him around when a dog charged me

    Ok – I digress …

    Re Rocks in stomach – I think the issue here is one of how to allocate resources. Many shelters will euthanize dogs that have a low chance of adoptability or a low chance of survivability so that they can use their already limited resources on dogs with better prospects. Not saying that I support it – but it is a difficult issue.

    This is another reason why I stopped watching the Animal Cop shows because some of the shelters featured have this type of policy and it is heartbreaking – even though I can understand the reasoning behind it. I really like DogTown because they try to save every dog, but city shelters often do not have that luxury.

    Re barking dogs – Same thing here. Dogs that they are unsure of, wrt. temperament they will just euthanize because it may take a lot of resources to rehabilitate them and ultimately they may still need to find homes with more experienced owners. With them it is a numbers game. They have many other dogs with no temperament issues whatsoever, so they choose to spend their bucks on those dogs. Again – not saying it is right.

    The ASPCA is usually very good about rehabilitating all of their dogs, and that is why I like their Animal Cops best. Plus they are full police officers, so they also tend to get a lot more respect from the dog owners, which is great to watch. Also love watching the people getting hand-cuffed and arrested. You never get that in the Phoenix one.

    See you tomorrow

    Reply
37. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Okay, let’s see if I can start another argument. I just saw the newest Animal Cops: Phoenix episode on Animal Planet, and I was flabbergasted by the incompetence exhibited by what seems to be the entire Humane Society operation there. One case involved a rambunctious emaciated dog with a stomach full of rocks, and those rocks needed surgical extraction, but the doctor killed the dog instead because she thought it might not survive the surgery given his emaciated state. Unbelievable, rather than give the happy energetic dog a chance, the Vet just went straight to kill it. I was stunned.

    Next they went to a house with 2 dogs in the backyard that were clearly not aggressive, although they were barking behind the fence, so they got 3 people to manhandle these dogs back to the ‘shelter’, where professional evaluators completely misread every behavior cue the dogs were making so they killed the first one and would have killed the second one except for a rescue guy in San Diego said bring him to me, which they did and of course the dog was fine. I’ve never seen an entire show filled from top to bottom with people who don’t know behavioral squat about dogs. I was screaming at my TV at several points, which if I were in Phoenix I’m afraid might get me euthanized for insurmountable aggression. Agggghhhh!! It’s quite the helpless feeling knowing that none of these euthanasias were called for. Sometimes I wonder if I would be happier not knowing what I know. If I could drink a bottle of blissful ignorance I would have to seriously consider it, but in the end I would have to pour it out and settle for an Anchor Steam instead.

    I await your viewing of this new episode, whence hopefully you will concur.

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38. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    No, I just took out my shock collar, choke chain, and prong collar and threw it at him – but he still kept coming. So I took off my shoe and tried to jab his side with my now shoeless foot

    I agree that one should never turn and run when charged. This just makes you into prey. Instead, it is best to slowly walk away while keeping an eye on the dog. Personally, I would not confront the dog with a hard stare and would certainly not walk towards him. Even Cesar Millan asks people to do the no-touch-no-talk-no-eye-contact rule when meeting dogs. Challenging a charging dog with eye-contact may just instigate him to attack.

    So far we agree on drinking beers, postmen, as well as not turning and running away. Hey – it is tallying up

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39. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    So you got charged, eh? I can just see you trying to offer your attacker a reward if he stops chewing on you:):) Or do you remove the reward of what’s left of your bloody stump and tell the owner he should give his dog a time out? Just kidding. I’m a kidder. Me, I’ve been charged before, and what worked was to unhesitatingly but calmly move towards the dog charging me, showing no intimidation: full eye contact, arms out to make me look as large as possible, fingers pointing to signal the dog to go away, and a loud ‘hey’. When the dog stopped moving towards me, I stopped moving towards him, signalling I am not here to threaten you, just stop you. When the dog at some point looked away, this was my cue that he was willing to submit, and only then did I begin to move back, still facing and pointing forward. Repeat until you work your way the hell away from there. Never turn your back or retreat when the dog is charging or you encourage it to charge further. Of course, if the charge is one ordered by the cops,all bets are off — just bend over and kiss your ass goodbye…

    I look forward to a rebroadcast of the Bella episode. As with any device or process, if used incorrectly one can certainly do more harm than good, and I am certain that the vast majority of users of such devices do use them incorrectly. I say ‘such devices’ because I include pronged collars, choke collars, shock collars, squirt guns, etc. I say ‘process’ because inappropriate reward behaviors can do Way more harm than good as well, creating neurotic manipulative insecure fear-aggressive psychological damage that in all likelihood is exactly how your charger friend got so twisted. An “it’s ok baby” is a dangerous and destructive tool in the hands of a clueless (i.e. typical) owner.

    Reply
40. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Congratulations. You got me on the shock-collar episode. I forgot about that one (yours aren’t the only brain cells having difficulty). It’s only been shown once, a few months ago for the first and only time, and I had forgotten much of the details. I remember it now. The key to this episode was that IT WAS NOT MILLAN who did the rehabilitation. There is some chick whose place is reminiscent of DogTown in that it’s full of rescued barking penned-up frustrated dogs, and for some reason Millan considers her a protege. He delegates this insanely aggressive case to this beautiful but not-too-bright woman, and it is SHE who introduces the use of the shock collar to this recovering alcoholic dog owner. I remember now watching this episode proceed and wondering what the hell is this babe’s attraction in Millan’s eyes. There was another episode a couple of years ago where she was part of a rescue of three Katrina dogs and it was clear then that she had none of Millan’s skills. This 2009 episode with the recovering alcoholic and his insanely aggressive pitbull does end well, in fact on quite an inspirational note, but what Millan himself would have done in this case, which was how we got here in the first place, one cannot know. I stand by my original point that he himself is never seen using ‘shocks’.

    The vet article by this Yin chick is verbal dogpoo. We Definitely are going to have to agree to disagree on this horsepucky.

    One job I’m glad I don’t have is mailcarrier. Being exposed to so many clueless dog owners and their resulting out-of-control dogs would probably just get me into trouble, as I stopped to correct and train each one of them on my route. Neither sleet nor rain nor snow nor dark of night would stop me, but all those chances to rehabilitate a dog and train a human would slow me way the heck down:)

    Reply
41. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Yes, I’m buying the first round, but we may not have much tolerance of each other once we start vying for argumentative dominance:) Neither one seems to be able to get thru the thick skull of the other…

    Okay let’s start. Yes, dogs don’t spend all their time trying to dominate each other. This is true because once dominance has been established only an occasional reminder is required, such as when a brash youth decides to challenge the status quo. The control of resources is through the THREAT of physical dominance, just as the bully gets the timid kid’s lunch money every day without having to punch him but maybe once, one day, or maybe never at all if the kid sees the Other kids being dominated and submits without any challenge at all. Bucks crash into each other headlong until one submits, then they all get along peacefully, but the Threat is always there, and all the bucks know it. The puppy is ABSOLUTELY learning to dominate you — what you call play between puppies is ABSOLUTELY the puppies trying to work out which one is in charge. When one yelps and the other stops biting it’s because dominance has just been established, and no more biting is necessary for the dominant dog to redundantly make his point — both dogs know who’s boss, and now they can live in peace, secure in their roles, unless of course a new challenge is issued, and the process then repeats. Which dog is submitting to the other is very clear when it lies on its back and exposes its belly to the dominant one. The pack leader will never be seen exposing his underside to any other pack member.

    Regarding removing the dog from the postman, this is exactly the wrong thing to do. The dog needs to learn to Like the postman, which can only be done by bringing them Together, not separating them. Your approach results in a lifetime of protective/aggressive behavior aimed at the harmless postman. The dog needs to Meet the postman, be rewarded (yes, rewarded) by the postman, and soon be calmly and quietly enthusiastic at the postman’s approach, not angry at that mean man who causes his owner to remove him every time the postman cometh. Same thing with the vet and the groomer — the dog should be conditioned to Love those people. The two episodes where Millan teaches vets how to lead dogs and the two episodes where Millan teaches groomers how to lead dogs are lessons all professionals should learn. When done showing these supposed professionals the ineffectiveness of their prior ways they all trip over each other thanking him for changing the whole way they look at dog behavior, and the dogs and practitioners are so clearly happier as a result of the lessons learned.

    Regarding the shock collar, this just ain’t so. I’ve seen every episode several times, and the only episode with a shock collar was a dog snipping at the tires of a tractor on a farm. In this case Millan set the collar to Vibrate, not Shock, and used it a grand total of One time, at just the perfect time, and the dog that had for a Year nipped at three-foot tractor tires Never did it again. The owners were effusive months later in their videotaped praise for Millan having saved their dog’s life. No other episode has involved use of such collar, and again, even this episode only tickled the dog in vibrate mode, like a pager would do in your pocket. You should watch a few episodes of the show again and get those memory brain cells working better.

    Reply
42. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    Hello Calmassertiv,

    I am afraid this is one of those cases where we may have to agree to disagree on.

    Re Puppy Biting – The puppy is not trying to dominate me or anybody else. The puppy is playing – play biting and really enjoying a playmate. If you watch dogs play – that is also what they do with each other. If one of them bites too hard, the other will yelp and stop playing. This stops play which is taking away a reward. Ultimately the other dog will learn not to bite so hard because biting too hard stops play which is what they want. This is different in a dog fight but then the puppy was not dog fighting with me. Context is very important. Not all biting is dominance, aggression, or a fight.

    In the postman case, the dog is trying to chase the postman away from his territory. So yes, in that case if you leave then you are rewarding the dog. The solution there is to remove the dog from the area and get him to do something else.

    As for the grooming case – the dog is almost always showing fear aggression, and not dominance. The best way to deal with grooming is through desensitization exercises.

    As for food aggression, dogs commonly get food aggressive when they have had bad experiences with people or other dogs coming near their food. This usually results when people constantly take things away from the dog, thereby triggering an aggressive reaction from the dog who now feels he has to protect his belongings. If you give a dog positive associations with people being around their food, then they will never develop food aggression.

    “Regarding Millan’s handling of food/toy aggression, he Never Touches the dog”

    Well, I will admit that my memory is not the best and it certainly is not improving with age However, there was a recent episode of this where Cesar Millan tried to poke this very food aggressive dog with his foot – which did not work out well. So he ended up using a shock collar. Cesar Millan does correct an aggressive response with an aversive stimulus to show the dog that aggression is an unacceptable response. Based on the aversive training that uses, he has to – because if he does not then the dog will keep showing aggression. This is just like when a dog pulls, you give an aversive collar correction – unacceptable behavior -> aversive stimulus -> stops behavior -> stop aversive stimulus.

    Dogs do not spend all their time trying to dominate each other. They spend most of their time living life. And a more recent 30 year study of wolves show that they control leadership through the control of resources not through physical dominance.

    There is not much else I can say on the subject – I think we have both said it all. Now to go drink some beer – you are paying right?

    Reply
43. Calmassertiv says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    Thank you for providing such a stimulating discussion opportunity. I do love a challenge.

    In your puppy-training example it seems to me that what you’ve done by walking away when the puppy bites is to teach the puppy to bite the human to get the human to go away. This lesson then is extended by the puppy into food aggression, which is to say bite at the human when the human gets near the dog’s food so as to get the human to leave the food alone. In fact, it trains the dog to bite at the mailman to make Him go away, and the dog groomer to make Him go away, and the vet to make Him go away, etc. All because you thought it was ok for the cute little puppy to bite you but not ok for you to bite back at the cute little puppy. You’ve established yourself as the pack Follower from the very outset, deprived yourself of the respect your dog should have had for its owner, and really made your and your dog’s life much more complicated and stressful than it should have had any reason to be as a result. Your presence can be construed as a reward, this is true, in the sense that the dog perceives his leader as giving him some of his time, but if you let your Dog decide that the time is up then you teach him that humans are His followers, which will create all sorts of problems. The dog knows that if you were a leader you would never get up and leave when a follower attempted to dominate/bite you. You haven’t taught the puppy not to bite, you’ve only taught the puppy not to bite As Long As He Still Wants You Around, that He can dictate when You stay and when You go. Bad idea.

    Regarding Millan’s handling of food/toy aggression, he Never Touches the dog, let alone ‘pokes’ or ‘alpha rolls’ him, as you put it. Are you watching the same show I am? He acts in a dominant manner, moving forward and then over the object in a signal that he is there to Claim the object, until the dog moves away. Sometimes this means standing over the object for a Long time, long enough to tire the angry dog out, vis-a-vis the Ali rope-a-dope in the Foreman fight. The dog eventually learns that this human is not going away, and when that happens, he surrenders the object to the human. This process has been demonstrated on many episodes over the years. I think you need to re-watch a few episodes — your memory is not doing you or Millan justice.

    Lastly, don’t get me started on the ‘free country’ topic. It just raises my blood pressure thinking about it (or what’s left of it). But thanks again for the most engaging conversation. I can use the mental exercise:)

    Reply
44. shibashake says:

    July 8, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    lol – well 24 hour news – sometimes I feel a bit sorry for the people who have to come up with things to say, as well as for the people who have to say them. But oh well – they are extremely well compensated for it.

    “Isn’t ‘blocking’ and ‘removing’ your dog from the curtains a form of ‘aversion’ training? ”

    No it is not aversion training. And yes I know that Cesar Millan does body blocking. I don’t disagree with all of Cesar Millan’s methods, just the aversive based ones.

    Aversive training delivers an aversive stimulus to the dog which could be pain, unpleasant smells, a loud sound, i.e. any stimulus that the dog does not enjoy. Body blocking (just body blocking with no finger pokes or anything like that) – does not deliver any aversive stimulus. Its main goal is to take space/freedom away from the dog. Space or freedom is a reward stimulus – something that the dog likes. In reward training you stop bad behaviors by taking away rewards, which in this case is the dog’s space and freedom.

    Now what you mention Cesar Millan doing with food aggression cases is a bit different. In those cases, he is not trying to take away a reward for a bad behavior, but rather he is trying to trigger the bad behavior by taking away food or toys from a food aggressive dog. This will usually trigger an aggressive reaction, at which time Cesar Millan will respond with an aversive stimulus such as a finger poke, or sometimes an alpha roll.

    Cesar Millan also *does* use pure body blocks – the most common case of him using this is when he prevents dogs from bolting out the door. In most of these cases he just blocks and does not do the finger poke or whatever else. In this case he is doing reward training – specifically – negative punishment. Reward training consists of positive reinforcement (giving a reward) and negative punishment (taking away a reward). Aversive training consists of positive punishment (giving an aversive stimulus) and negative reinforcement (taking away an aversive stimulus).

    To use your previous Sit example – if you wanted to do this with aversive training you would issue the command – Sit. If your dog failed to comply you would apply an aversive stimulus (e.g. collar correction). You would keep applying it until your dog does a Sit. Then you would stop giving collar corrections to reinforce that Sit behavior. Give and take away an aversive stimulus.

    With reward training it is the same way. Another clearer example would be when I ask my dog to do a Sit and Wait before I let him out into the backyard. If he does not do it, he does not get to go out (i.e. no reward). When he does it, I open the door and he goes. If he starts misbehaving in the backyard, e.g. digging up grass, he gets a non-mark, and gets brought back in the house. He does not get access to the backyard if he digs. After a bit, he gets to go out and try again. The extreme case of this is the time-out where he does not get any freedom at all.

    In my experience, it is not true at all that the time-out retards the learning process. Again – it is not about giving the dog time to mull things over or just a lazy way to not supervise. It is taking away his freedom and access to pack members – which is a reward that he has to earn by following house rules. A similar time-out sequence but in a different context is in training puppies not to bite. You put the puppy in an enclosure and go in there to play with them. If they start biting, you yelp and stop playing with them and ignore them. Again this is a reward technique because you are taking away your attention and affection – which are both rewards. If your puppy continues and escalates his biting behavior, you leave the enclosure and he stays in there. That is an even more extreme case of taking away a reward, because now you are removing yourself totally. This is pretty much exactly like a time-out but you see – it has nothing to do with not supervising or mulling things over – it has to do with removing a reward – i.e. yourself.

    Dogs need discipline and structure – I think nobody disagrees with that. But again discipline and structure can be achieved with either reward training or aversive training. My dogs have house rules, walk rules, backyard rules, etc. If they choose not to follow them, then they get something that they really like taken away from them. When they do something that I ask, they get something they really like given to them.

    Dogs don’t rule because they have to live with us with our very human rules that they do not understand. That is why we must take the leadership role – to protect them. But again – between no leadership and total leadership (dictator) there are a range of possibilities. It is not an all or nothing thing. We do not need to have an antagonistic relationship with our dogs where the only choices are we win or the dog wins. It is better to have a cooperative relationship where everyone wins – that is the type of relationship I try to foster with my dogs. Sometimes I give and they take, sometimes they give and I take. Other people may prefer a different type of relationship which is their choice – it is a free country.  

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