Are bad dogs simply untrained or were they born bad?
Some people believe that certain bad dog behaviors are a result of bad breeding while others believe that they are wholly the result of bad dog training.
The truth, as always, is somewhere in-between.
Breeding and breed does contribute to a dog’s temperament and behaviors. Some dogs are more high-strung than others, some are born confident, some are more susceptible to fear or stress, some are more mouthy, etc.
To get a dog with good temperament, do some research on the breeds you are most interested in. Once you have made a decision, do a lot more research into good breeders or adoption agencies in your area.
Puppies from pet stores, and online stores are mostly from puppy-mills, and will have a lot more health and temperament issues.
Even though breeding and breed does contribute to the overall temperament and behavior of a dog, it can be counterbalanced with training and management.
Dogs that are born with a less balanced temperament, however, will require more time, patience, training, and management.
My Shiba Inu, for example, is easily stressed, very stubborn, and naturally mouthy. Therefore, I manage him carefully and only expose him to situations that I know he can handle. At the same time I am slowly desensitizing him to the conditions that cause him stress.
My Siberian Husky is just a happy-go-lucky dog, and needs less management and attention.
We should all recognize, though, that some dogs are just more difficult to manage than others.
Try not to judge others too quickly because of the misbehavior of their dogs. Just like us, dogs do not all start from a level playing field, and what we consider to be bad behaviors may be a result of the dog’s natural tendency towards fear or anxiety.
And if you have one of those more challenging dogs – know that you are not alone. Your dog can be properly managed and trained with time and patience. Make sure though that his unexpected behaviors are not a result of any physical health issues.
And a Big Kudos to you for sticking with your dog, and helping him through his challenges. That makes you a big Dog Hero and you should stand tall and be proud!
Oh very interesting –
Since it is natural for most dogs to hunt down prey, then you would consider a dog that hunts down and kills cats, squirrels, etc. to be balanced (given that he is balanced in all other aspects).
However, we humans step in and train them not to do this – in which case then does the dog become unbalanced? Because now the dog does not have a “natural response” to prey.
Dogs are also naturally territorial. They have to be, because they must protect their den and resources. The orange dog that you describe may just be trying to tell you to leave his/her territory.
I think if you come across a wolf in the wild, it would not come up to smell you even with noT,noT,noE. Likely, it will try to posture and chase you off his territory.
It is difficult for us to make these judgments of balanced/not-balanced without placing our very human values on it.
True, but some people are born with a greater susceptibility to phobias. Same thing with dogs. We have a lot of external differences, I think it makes sense that we would have internal differences as well.
I agree with that 100%.
It’s nice to know that I challenge you.
“Not sure I agree with that. I think that some things the dogs inherit, and some things are caused by their environment, i.e. us. Some dogs are born naturally more fearful, stressed, confident, etc.”
Not sure if I agree with you, either. I don’t think I’ve ever come across a puppy that took one look at something and ran away, wholly on sight. Sure, dogs can be cautious around things, i.e. a snake, that’s how they’re programmed to stay alive. Of course there are going to be some dogs that stay father away, and others that go right up to the snake. I think that dogs will check things out before they see something as a threat, unless given a previous reason to react a certain way.
“Similarly, balanced is a very human term – what we mean is balanced based on what we humans expect our dogs to be.”
Ah, but I don’t think this is the case. A dog can be a “good” (well trained) dog without being balanced, and a balanced dog can be a “bad” dog, meaning that it causes it’s owners problems not because it’s not balanced, but because the owners haven’t taught it what they want.
A dog can be feral and still be balanced, and no one wants a feral dog. If you take that dog into a human home, though, it is likely to become unbalanced due to stress from fear of people (unless the people get it through the fear). My definition of a balanced dog is a dog that doesn’t have any unreasonable (as far as survival goes) fears, anxieties, aggression, obsession, etc. Balanced also means that the dog is more “in tune” with its environment; and hasn’t been programmed, either intentionally or not, to react harshly to certain things.
I’ll give you an example;
Two days ago I ventured out with my mom to see some miniature horses at some person’s farm. There they had two Pomeranians in a small gate. Both of these dogs were far from balanced, but there is always one who’s going to be a little less or more balanced then the other. I went to meet them, following the noT, noT, noEC, rule. The little black one barked almost the entire time I sat there, while the orange larger one walked around the cage. Now, you probably know what a Pomeranian sounds like; yappy little buggers. This probably gets on people’s nerves and leads them to think that the little one is less balanced than the other, when in fact it was the opposite. The bark wasn’t an aggressive bark, just a alerting bark, and after she quieted down, she was quite calm. She may have even given me submissive eye contact. The orange dog, on the other hand, was pacing around nervously even after the other had settled, growling occasionally and not wanting to smell me. I didn’t give eye contact to the bigger one, so it shouldn’t have seen me as a threat. It was not in tune to what I was telling it, which was, “I am not going to harm you, I just want to let you meet me”.
“Some children try more things, and recover more quickly from stress. Others take a longer time to recover. I have noticed the same thing with dogs.”
Yes, but no one is simply born with a fear, or more importantly, a phobia. Those things are developed based on our experiences and the reactions of others. Sure, some people are going to be more cautious of things, but again they’re not going to be fearful until given a reason to be.
“Probably in the wild, she would already be killed by other dogs, but under human values, her easy-going temperament is highly appreciated and valued by us”
I don’t think she’d be killed if she’s balanced like you say. She would simply be lower in rank. Dog packs will seek and destroy only what is harming the pack, like an unstable member.
“I do agree that many dog behavior issues are a result of lack of activity and exercise, but I do not think that it is all about exercise.”
I don’t think you understood what I meant. I was talking about the drives we humans have bred into dogs for certain jobs. Shepherds want to herd, terriers want to dig, and hounds want to hunt or track. If the drives in that dog are strong, it only makes sense we should give them and outlet for their needs before asking them to do what we want.
Hello Nicco,
“The answer that I really want is, why do dogs lunge at other dogs?”
I think if you look at wolf packs, wolf greetings across different packs are a very rare thing. In fact, wolves mark their territory and when other wolves (not from their pack) enter, there is usually a lot of posturing and sometimes a fight for territory.
I think it is us humans that have this unrealistic expectation that our dogs should like all other dogs. Some dogs like meeting other dogs, others gets stressed, some get fearful, and some do not like other dogs getting into their space.
In the world of wolves it is more natural to fight or at least posture and drive the wolf intruders away rather than to get along, play, and share dog biscuits together.
Not saying that this means we should let our dogs go wild and attack each other, but that it is perfectly natural if they don’t get along with all the dogs they meet.
“But because we have consistently done the wrong things with our dogs they want to be aggressive to that dog instead of just check him or her out.”
We have talked about this some Alex. Again I do not think that this is all a result of us humans. Wolves protect their territory and will drive other wolves out when they encroach upon their territory. They may posture and charge, and ultimately they may fight. Our dogs do similar behaviors.
It is true that humans may exacerbate the situation by doing the wrong thing and projecting the wrong energy, but this is not wholly a human made “issue”.
“If we all walked off leash, would the dogs still lunge at each other?”
I think that the leash does sometimes aggravate the situation. In particular most owners will tend to pull directly back on the leash, thereby causing a lunge forward action from the dog. Continuing to tug back on the dog in this fashion can also increase the dog’s frustration and cause him to become aggressive towards the other dog or redirect back on the leash or the human holding the leash.
I agree that in general it is best to move the dogs away in such situations. Desensitization is best done by exposing the dog to small amounts of the stressful stimulus, and then re-associating that stress to positive action and positive results.
Flooding is another technique that some trainers use to help dogs get over phobias. Flooding can be effective but it is also very risky.
In general I think what you are doing wrt. creating neutral experiences is good, and I think what Alex said about projecting a positive outcome is also a good way to go. Projecting a positive outcome made a huge difference with my Shiba who can also be dog reactive.
Hi Alex, What an interesting post. You always make me think a lot more deeply about the issues.
“In my opinion, all dogs are born balanced.”
Not sure I agree with that. I think that some things the dogs inherit, and some things are caused by their environment, i.e. us. Some dogs are born naturally more fearful, stressed, confident, etc. As Nicco points out, these properties are not good or bad, they just are. Similarly, balanced is a very human term – what we mean is balanced based on what we humans expect our dogs to be.
“What we see as stubborn, high strung, etc. is wholly just their temperament, not a scale of how good a dog they are.”
This I agree with – although again these “temperaments” contribute to whether the dog is more “balanced” or less “balanced”. In general, we would consider a less stubborn dog, who is responds by submitting to us to be more “balanced”. Again, I think “balanced” itself is a human moral overlay.
“I don’t believe that dogs are born with fears, puppies will take on any challenge unless give a reason not to. The same goes with children. Children are born with no fears”
Hmmm, I think some children are born with a more fearful temperament than others. Some children try more things, and recover more quickly from stress. Others take a longer time to recover. I have noticed the same thing with dogs.
I am a big proponent of social conditioning and self conditioning, and personally, I believe that we can overcome any “temperament” differences that we are born with. However, I believe that there are temperament differences which contribute to how balanced dogs are and how balanced humans are. And by balanced I simply mean how easily one fits into society and finds happiness.
We are born with a lot of physical differences, and I think we are born with temperament differences as well.
“Your husky is a perfect example; even though she is a Siberian husky, known for their athleticism and high energy, she is very laid back and easy going.”
I agree with what you said about breed characteristics. They define a general tendency but there can always be outliers. But they do define a general difference in tendencies/temperament that an average dog within the breed will fall into.
As for my husky she is very high energy and needs a lot more exercise than my Shiba 🙂 But she is also a lot more easy going – i.e. she gets less stressed over things, is comfortable with handling, is not stubborn, and deals with threats by submitting rather than going on the attack. Probably in the wild, she would already be killed by other dogs, but under human values, her easy-going temperament is highly appreciated and valued by us.
“these are variable and just need an outlet to fulfill said need.”
I do agree that many dog behavior issues are a result of lack of activity and exercise, but I do not think that it is all about exercise. And I believe that some dogs are just naturally more difficult for us humans to train because of certain temperaments that they are born with. Not saying not possible – just more difficult.
Nicco-
“The best thing I can do now is just to try avoiding it whenever possible, I’m afraid that the more he acts up in those situations, the more that behavior is going to become ingrained.”
Maybe, maybe not. The more you avoid it the less chances you’ll have to fix the problem, but the more you don’t take control and desensitize him the more he’ll learn it’s OK to do that.
“I’m pretty sure I’m not the source of my dog’s behavior around other dogs on leash, I’m one of the calmest people ever (and not very talkative), and I’ve learned to be assertive with my dog.”
You are always the source of your dog’s behavior; or at least what keeps it going after the behavior has been taught by someone/something else. I’ve found that even when I think I’m being calm and assertive, my dog won’t listen or will act up because I’m actually calm/passive. You said yourself that you’re afraid he’s going to get worse. Do you think about this when approaching a dog? You have to imagine what you want, not the worst case scenario, in order to accomplish what you want.
“The answer that I really want is, why do dogs lunge at other dogs?”
There are many reasons for why dogs lunge at other dogs. They could be doing it to release their frustration because they aren’t being properly exercised/stimulated; and found that aggression towards other dogs is the only way they can release that frustration. They could also be protecting their “pack”, because if the human isn’t protecting them, someone has to, right? It might be irrational to us, as we see there is no danger, but to the mind of an unstable dog anything is a threat.
“Do wolf packs start lunging at each other when they pass?”
Probably not, because wolf packs seldom cross paths in the wild. The word “lunging” to me means something being held back, but still jerking forward against that force. As you see with the other dogs, they are really just trying to run at your dog when they see him, which is probably what a wolf would do (maybe just walk) if they saw another wolf. But because we have consistently done the wrong things with our dogs they want to be aggressive to that dog instead of just check him or her out.
“If we all walked off leash, would the dogs still lunge at each other?”
Most likely answer; no. Because in order to walk a dog off leash you must have full control of that dog, which means the dog most likely won’t have problems. But, even dogs that are perfect on leash can still develop issues.
Yeah, the whole passing dogs thing is a work in progress. The best thing I can do now is just to try avoiding it whenever possible, I’m afraid that the more he acts up in those situations, the more that behavior is going to become ingrained. Most of the dogs we pass are even worse than mine, they start acting up at a greater distance and the owners start freaking out which makes it worse. Since I’m new to my area I don’t really have any friends, much less friends with calm dogs who I can do training exercises with.
I’m pretty sure I’m not the source of my dog’s behavior around other dogs on leash, I’m one of the calmest people ever (and not very talkative), and I’ve learned to be assertive with my dog. Of course, I say this now, but watch Cesar Millan handle my dog with no issues! The desensitization method you described sounds good, but as I mentioned, I don’t have the resources to do that right now.
The answer that I really want is, why do dogs lunge at other dogs? I can understand the instinct to have to chase a squirrel, that’s prey drive, but why other dogs? Is it that they feel the need to protect their pack? Do wolf packs start lunging at each other when they pass? Where in their evolutionary history did dogs develop the natural reaction to start lunging at other dogs? If we all walked off leash, would the dogs still lunge at each other?
In my opinion, all dogs are born balanced. If they’re raised with their mother and littermates they will stay balanced. Dogs only become unstable or unbalanced when humans step into the picture. Somewhere along the line the dog came in contact with a human, the human didn’t do what they were supposed to (according to the dog, anyway) and so the dog became unbalanced with the help of a human. What we see as stubborn, high strung, etc. is wholly just their temperament, not a scale of how good a dog they are. If you’re high energy it only makes sense for you to get a high energy (or lower) dog. On the other hand, if someone with a low energy gets a high energy dog they are most likely going to have problems with that dog and see that dog as “bad”.
I don’t believe that dogs are born with fears, puppies will take on any challenge unless give a reason not to. The same goes with children. Children are born with no fears; they’ll pick up spiders, wrestle with snakes, and even run up to a barking dog. We only develop fears when given a reason to, like our parents’ reaction or pain.
While breed and breeding does contribute a “standard” for what the dog is going to be like, any breed can have any temperament; whether it be high or low energy, skittish or confident, dominant or submissive. Your husky is a perfect example; even though she is a Siberian husky, known for their athleticism and high energy, she is very laid back and easy going. Breed mostly controls that animal’s drive; terriers want to dig, greyhounds want to run, beagles want to hunt, and labs want to swim; but even these are variable and just need an outlet to fulfill said need.
Hello Nicco,
Good to see you. How are things going with the dog-to-dog greetings?
I agree with you – the whole good and bad thing is a very human thing that we place on our dogs. Dogs are just trying out different behaviors, and will repeat the ones that they get them good results and not repeat the ones that get them bad results.
Different dogs however will have different preferences in terms of what they consider to be good or bad results. It is these differences in preferences/temperament, I think, that make some easier to train to follow our human rules, and others more difficult to train.
In general, we tend to consider easy-to-train dogs, good and not-easy-to-train dogs, bad. But as you very accurately pointed out, the moral value overlay is all from us.
Dog training would probably be a lot easier if we stop looking at things from a human perspective, and try to look at things from our dog’s perspective. In this, I totally agree with Cesar Millan 🙂
In my opinion there’s no such thing as a good or bad dog. Dogs aren’t trying to be good or bad, as there is no such thing as moral values in the animal kingdom. They’re just doing what they know to do and what we teach them to do. Chasing squirrels is just instinct. They’re not doing it to be good or bad because they don’t think about what they’re doing, they just react.