The shock collar, remote training collar, or electronic dog collar is most commonly used in four areas –
- Keep dogs inside our property. Our dog is corrected every time he nears the fence-line. This is also known as an invisible fence or underground fence.
- Stop dogs from barking. The collar automatically delivers a correction whenever our dog starts to bark. If he continues to bark, the force, duration, and frequency of the shocks may be automatically increased.
- Train dogs and stop problem dog behaviors. Shock collars are most commonly used for off-leash training. However, some dog trainers and pet owners also use it for behavioral issues such as food aggression, and dog aggression.
- Teach dogs to stay away from dangerous animals and objects. A common use is in rattlesnake aversion training. A dog is shocked hard, but a very small number of times, when he nears a caged rattlesnake. This teaches him not to approach rattlesnakes in the future.
The use of shock collars on dogs is a very emotional topic. Discussions will often degrade into personal attacks, accusations of dog cruelty, and other types of name calling.
In this article, I will try to stick to the facts, and consider whether it is something I would use on my dogs. Note however, that facts are not always convenient, and facts are not always balanced between the two sides.
If you have already made up your mind about using electronic collars and are looking for validation, this article is not for you.
Electronic Collars vs. Shock Collars
Not all electronic collars are used as shock collars. There are three main modes – 1. Beep mode, 2. Vibrate mode, and 3. Shock mode.
All electronic collars have the shock functionality, but the beep or vibrate functions are optional.
1. Beep mode
In this mode, a beep is emitted whenever the collar controller is pressed. This beep can be used as a marker, in the same way that clickers are used in clicker training.
For the beep to be an effective marker, a dog needs prior training for associating the sound with a positive or negative consequence. For example, if the beep always precedes a sought after reward, then our dog may stop and wait, because he knows that something good is coming. Similarly, a dog may freeze or submit when he hears a beep, because he knows that failure to comply, will be followed by a painful shock.
The beep can also cause a startle response, similarly to blowing a whistle. This can be used to get our dog’s attention or to interrupt his current action. However, for this to work, we must only use the interrupt signal on very rare occasions. If applied too frequently, our dog will become accustomed to it, and just ignore it.
2. Vibrate mode
In this mode, the collar vibrates, similar to how our pager or phone vibrates to get our attention. Like the beep mode, this vibration can be used as a marker or as an interrupt.
Both the beep and vibrate modes do not deliver an electric shock to the dog.
3. Shock mode.
In shock mode, the electronic collar will deliver an electric current to the dog through two contact points at the dog’s neck.
This electric current will cause pain and physical discomfort to the dog, otherwise it would not be effective in conditioning him.
The amount of pain delivered to the dog will depend on three key factors –
- The power/voltage of the electric current,
- The duration of the current, and
- The frequency of the current.
The amount of pain that the dog actually feels, will also depend on the physical characteristics of the dog (e.g. size, skin, and fur), as well as the temperament of the dog. Some dogs are more sensitive to pain than others.
Sometimes, words like stimulation are used to describe shock collars. I even saw them described as gentle training collars.
Beware of these sales gimmicks. Accept an electronic collar for what it is. If you choose to use it, make an informed decision that is based on the actual pros and cons of the system, which I will discuss below. Note that the subsequent discussion is solely based on the shock functionality of remote training collars (not on the beep and vibrate modes).
The Good
1. Allows us to control the amount of pain delivered to our dog, and administer that pain from a distance.
One of the great challenges of implementing pain based aversive techniques such as leash jerks, muzzle slaps, and finger pokes, is in controlling the amount of force delivered to the dog.
- Too much force and our dog may break down, and become extremely stressed or fearful.
- Too little force and our dog will get habituated to the corrections, and just ignore them.
Master aversive trainers are able to deliver just the right amount of force, so that the dog will not repeat a bad behavior, but at the same time, he will also not become unbalanced and fearful.
Unlike other aversive methods, remote training collars allows us to easily adjust the amount of pain delivered to a dog, and to keep that level of pain consistent in subsequent corrections. We can also administer the pain from a distance.
However, it should also be mentioned that the amount of pain actually ‘felt’ by the dog as well as the resulting response, depends on many different factors, not just the level of shock applied.
Although these devices are presented as a highly controllable method of modifying behaviour, via the controlled administering of pain/discomfort (the collars are designed to allow operator to set the duration and intensity of shock), an individual animal’s experience when a shock is applied will be influenced by numerous factors. In addition to individual temperament, the experience will be affected by the dog’s previous experiences, frequency of application, location of shock, thickness of hair and level of moisture on skin (Lindsay, 2005). Given that many of these factors are not easily determinable by the operator, this makes the device far less precise than suggested.
~~[RSPCA]
2. Can automatically deliver a shock correction to the dog, even when we are not there.
Another challenge of implementing proper aversive corrections, is using the right timing. We want to correct our dog as soon as he performs an unacceptable behavior, and stop correcting him as soon as he stops that behavior.
Electronic collars can be tied to a particular trigger event, such as barking or proximity to our fence-line. In this way, a shock is automatically and consistently delivered to the dog, as soon as he starts to bark or tries to escape. In fact, the invisible fence or shock anti-bark systems are convenient, because we do not even have to be there to deliver the corrections.
Shock collars such as these may sound tempting and easy to use, but unfortunately, consistent and automatic timing does not necessarily mean correct timing.
Studies show that automatic collars are risky, because tying a shock correction to a single trigger event, such as barking or proximity, is too simplistic and will frequently result in bad timing. This can subsequently lead to aggression and other dog behavioral issues.
There are some anti-bark collars that use sound aversion to stop dog barking, for example the Ultrasonic Anti-bark Collar. However, customer reviews have been poor because the sound stimulus is often insufficient to prevent the barking behavior.
3. The source of the aversive stimulus is less clear.
When we use other pain-based aversive techniques, it is usually obvious that the pain comes from us. This may teach our dogs to associate people with physical distress, which can also lead to fear. If this happens, we may lose some of our dog’s trust, and jeopardize our bond with him.
For example, when we apply a leash correction, it is apparent that the pain originates from the leash, and sometimes (if not redirected), from us. Therefore, the dog may decide to fight with the leash, or worse, with us.
This is less of a problem with electronic collars because the source of the pain is obscured, and there is no leash to fight with. However, because the pain comes from seemingly nowhere, our dog may mistakenly associate it with something he sees in the environment (e.g. another dog), the environment itself, or to multiple unrelated objects and events. This may cause misplaced stress, fear, and aggression, toward those objects.
Automatic shock collars also have a high risk of over-correcting a dog.
The Bad
1. May increase aggression in dogs.
According to Polsky’s study, dogs kept in shock containment systems (i.e. invisible fence or underground fence), can show extreme aggression towards humans, over and beyond their normal behavior.
Polsky’s results show that a big danger with electronic collars, especially automatic e-collars, is that they may cause dogs to make the wrong associations, and learn the wrong things.
Dogs may associate the pain from the shock with the environment or with objects in the environment (including humans , dogs, or cats), rather than with their escaping or barking behaviors. This may lead to anxiety or negative associations with those objects, which can ultimately result in aggression.
Some dogs that have been conditioned in this manner, may not want to set foot in the yard, for worry of pain. They may also start to attack humans and other animals, that wander too close to the fence perimeter.
Some dogs may get habituated to the shocks, and learn that if they can tolerate the pain close to the fence-line, they can escape. Once they escape, they are rewarded with no more shocks. In this way, the dog learns that escaping is a good thing, whereas staying in the backyard is not.
2. May increase stress in dogs and reduce their quality of life.
Schalke et al. conducted an electronic collar training study on fourteen laboratory-bred Beagles. Shock collar training was conducted over 7 days, for 1.5 hours per day. Then the dogs were released to freely hunt for 5 days, and to hunt on leash for another 5 days. Schalke’s study showed that the dogs who
… were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action, i.e. touching the prey, and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators.
~~[ Excerpt from ScienceDirect.com ]
However, the two other groups of dogs that were not able to so clearly predict and control the delivery of the shocks, showed elevated stress levels, with the highest levels present in the dogs that were arbitrarily shocked.
Most importantly, the group of dogs that received a shock for not abiding by a recall (Here) command, were also significantly elevated.
Even more distressing, is that the results remained the same when the dogs were reintroduced to the testing area after four weeks. Their stress levels remained high, even though they did not receive any shocks during this reintroduction period.
The results from Schalke’s study indicate that electronic collars are extremely risky to use even for the short term. Stress levels of the dogs were high after just 7 days, and were elevated as soon as they returned to the shock treatment environment. This is consistent with Polsky’s study, which show that dogs may associate the shock and stress they receive, with the environment itself.
This study provides strong evidence that shock collars are inappropriate for most kinds of dog training, as even common recall training will result in elevated stress levels, and a lower quality of life.
3. May weaken our bond with our dog.
Polsky and Schalke’s studies show that dogs often associate the pain from electronic collars with their environment, as well as with people, animals, and other objects in that environment. Even after shocks are no longer administered, the dogs still attach the environment to something stressful and negative.
Therefore, using a remote training collar on our dog may cause him to associate our home or backyard, with stress and pain. Or worse yet, it may cause him to associate the stress with other dogs, other people, or with us.
Remember that Schalke’s results show this negative attachment forming in a matter of 7 days.
Alternative to Shock Corrections
When I first got my Shiba Inu, I had a lot of problems with him. At the time, I was under the false impression that reward methods would not work on my dominant, stubborn, and aggressive Shiba Inu. Therefore, I was using aversive training and briefly considered the use of electronic collars, because the other aversive-based methods were not working well.
However, after doing a lot of reading, I decided to give reward dog training a chance.
Reward training is not a miracle cure, and it will still take a lot of work, consistency, and patience, to train our dog. However, reward techniques can work on dominant, stubborn, and aggressive dogs. It has worked well for training my Shiba. In fact, he stopped showing aggression toward me and others, after I stopped using pain-based methods.
Common Justifications for Shock Collars
1. Save a dog’s life.
Proponents of electronic collars sometimes argue that they are used to save a dog’s life, by preventing him from running into traffic.
It is important to note that off-leash recall is never 100% reliable, whatever equipment or training methods we may choose to use.
This is why there are leash laws in most neighborhoods. This is also why off-leash parks require dogs to be on-leash when they are in the parking lot area, or in areas that are close to roads and traffic.
I use a no-slip collar and secure leash to walk my dogs in the neighborhood. I also regularly check the collar and leash to ensure that they in good working order. Off-leash exercise can be had in fully enclosed spaces or large parks, where we are far enough away from traffic that a failed recall, will not result in an accident. Do not play Russian Roulette with our dog’s life.
2. Do not cause much pain, just a tingle.
Some people try remote training collars on themselves, and report that it only causes a tingle, so it really does not apply much pain to our dog.
However, to closely experience shock collar conditioning from my dog’s perspective, I would have to put the collar on my neck and surrender the controller to a handler. I will not know why, when, or where the shocks will be administered.
As I carry on with my day, I may feel the need for a smoke. I reach for it, and feel a tingle on my neck. It is just a tingle, so I continue.
At this point, the tingle not only persists, but increases in intensity. I am strong willed though, so I keep going. After all, that is exactly why I needed the shock collar in the first place.
The intensity keeps increasing until finally, I drop the bad object. My hand shakes. The experience was unpleasant, and now I want relief more than ever. Unfortunately, I do not even have a patch, all I have is this locked-on collar that I cannot remove. My eyes stray and my hands start to reach again …
Electronic collars are NOT harmless, nor are they just a little tingly. If they were so, they would not work. Their use is illegal for children and non-consenting adults. Here is another case in Utah. Trying the collar on ourselves, and doing a single, short, expected shock, at low intensity, is *not* how the collar will be used on our dogs. It is merely a gimmick to convince us that the collars are innocuous. If they were truly so harmless –
- Why is their use banned for children and non-consenting adults.
- Why is there so much scientific data showing how risky they can be.
- Why are they on the “do not use” list of so many well-respected dog advocate organizations.
- Why would they “work” on our stubborn dog, when other pain based aversive collars such as prong collars or choke collars have stopped working.
Logic tells us that this is a false claim.
3. Everybody else is biased and dishonest.
Another common argument, is that those who point out the risks of remote training collars are biased and dishonest. Personal attacks or ad hominem arguments such as these are not only pointless, but they also discourage rational discourse and the exchange of ideas. More on bias.
In this article, I describe what attracted me to look into electronic collars as a possible training tool for my Shiba Inu, as well as some of the risks that were of concern. Based on the studies and articles that I found, I also include counter-arguments (if present) for each of those points. In general, I found very little scientific evidence to recommend its use, while at the same time, there are many studies that show the risks involved.
After reading the results of Polsky and Schalke, it is difficult for me to come up with cases where the shock collar would be appropriate in dog training. Perhaps the only case would be in animal aversion training, such as teaching our dogs to fear and stay-away from rattlesnakes.
If you know of supporting scientific studies or substantiated data which highlight the good of remote training collars, it would certainly contribute much to the discussion, so please share them with us.
However, based on current reliable data, shock collars are not something I would use on my own dogs or generally recommend to others. It is also worth noting that the ASPCA, AVSAB, RSPCA, Kennel Club, and Blue Cross, are all against the use of shock collars for companion dogs.
You said you were posting a non bias article but all your little side comments were really distracting and clearly show that you do not like shock collars but I am at my ends and still don’t know what to do. My beagle (2yrs) will not stay off the table, will not stop taking food from my kids, and will not stop eating his whole bowl of food and the other dogs food what am I suppose to do rewarding him with treats will only encourage his eating habits. When we found him at 8 months he was very small we thought he was newborn and he had a parasite as long as his intestines he never ate and was dying but the Korean vet was able to save him since he healed he eats like he is still deprived of food and he is now 2 1/2 years old. He eats till he get sick and pulls our dinner right off the table. Help please!
You are right, some of the caption comments are distracting and does not flow well with the article. I have changed them so that they are more in line with the tone of the article.
As for not liking shock collars – I think I am pretty clear that I decided *not* to use them on any of my dogs. I wrote this article to talk about why and how I arrived at this decision. I try to present the facts and keep emotional and personal attacks out of it. As for bias, everybody has a bias, especially when it comes to something that we care about deeply, like our dogs. I try my best to keep an open mind so that if new information comes along that can help me improve things for my dogs, I am able to listen and learn.
When I started looking at shock collars as a possibility for my Shiba Inu, I was concerned about the risks. However, I wanted to consider all of the available options so that I could make the most informed decision. After all, there are some tempting aspects of shock collars, chief of which is that they can deliver a correction from a distance and without a leash. After reading a fair number of articles and studies on shock collars, I decided against using them for the reasons stated above.
As for food begging and opportunistic eating, that is a common dog behavior. Beagles especially are bred to follow scent, and that includes the nice smelling dinner on the table.
Both my Sibes are also very food focused, and they will do much to get a food reward. Therefore, I use that to my advantage. For example, I do not give them free food in a bowl. Instead, I make them work for all of their food. They get food for doing obedience commands, staying calm, walking without pulling, brushing teeth, following play rules, etc. The key is that they only get rewarded for good behavior. Bad behavior = they get nothing or they lose one of their privileges. This is also called the Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF program).
During dinner, my dogs can stay in the eating area with us as long as they are calm. If they start fussing, then I give them a pre-trained command to get them to calm down, e.g. Go to Mat or Down. If they calm down, then they get rewarded. If they keep fussing, then they are escorted out of the eating area and no longer get to be with everyone else. If they continue with bad behavior then they go for a brief timeout.
Here is a more general article on how I trained my Sibe puppies and how I stopped bad behaviors.
Here is an article on how dogs learn.
I have a bit of a issue lately. My 7 month old Siberian husky has been ignoring me when I try to call him inside. We have 4 other dogs, one Great Dane(yr.6), n three Chinese cresent/fox terrier mixes(two of them are 3 and the other one is 2yrs old) n they all come inside when you even say one of their names. So u can see how disgruntled when I have to fight with home to get in. The issue is worse when we finish playing. He doesn’t know when im done. Im currently a college student n have a full time job so I understand i don’t have lots of time to be around him. He is always happy when i come home from those places though. I do currently live with my parents n the eldest of my siblings. My parents have talked to me about getting a shock collar for the front yard, since when he does get out the door with out a harness n leash. He is gone! I hand to chase him down several block n bring him back. Im lucky he doesn’t weight that much. And for his behave with the other dogs we have at home. He is fine inside but the moment he is out there with them he thinks they all want to play. They have all snapped at him when he is getting to rough, but he has physically harmed them now they won’t even leave the padio if he is out there with him…
I do both reward training n physical discipline. Which works when he is inside and when I was train him on leash n he is a smart dog n gets it the first time threw. But out side i can tell by how he acts is play with me!! And that i know is cause my little time home, family that doesn’t want to help, and his aggressive(to our dogs they think he is) play to our older dogs is putting more stress on me cause i worry about him ever second when im not home cause the sitters i have dont care… I do t want to go to the shock collar or give him to some one else… I just love him too much to give up on him for the three month i had him.
Yeah, recall training is challenging for Sibes because they tend to have very high prey drive, and are bred to run. Here is a nice list of the various recall training techniques –
http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-articles/teaching-your-dog-to-come-when-called
After some training, both my Sibes will usually come when called if they are in the backyard. However, if they are after some prey, then all bets are off.
1. Bolting out the door
What has worked well for my Sibes is to train them on door-manners. Before I take a Sibe out for her walk, I get her to come to me by the door. Then, I ask her to “Sit” (previously trained) calmly while I put on her collar and lead. I reward her well for doing these things. After that, I give the “Stay” command and I open the door to put on my shoes (while holding the lead).
If she breaks from her “Stay”, I no-mark (Ack-ack), close the door, get her back into position, and repeat. We absolutely do not go out the door until I give her the “Break” command. In this way, she learns to wait until I am ready, before going out the door. Otherwise, we don’t go for our walk.
2. Play-time
During play-time, I also establish rules that my Sibes have to follow. They are not allowed to place teeth on my hands or jump on me. When I call a “Stop” to the game, they have to stop and not resume until I start the game again by giving the appropriate command.
To teach them these rules, I make sure to reward good behavior with food and more play. However, when they do something undesirable, I no-mark (Ack-ack), stop the game, and ignore them. In this way, they learn that if they play rough, the game stops. However, if they follow game rules, then they get food and a fun playmate.
Here is more on what I do with my dogs during play-time.
3. Interaction with other dogs
Sibes are very energetic dogs, especially during puppyhood and they love wrestling and rough-play. They can easily overwhelm smaller dogs because of this.
I supervise my dogs when they play with each other and also establish some dog-to-dog rules of play. For example, there is no humping or stealing. If they start to hump, I will quickly interrupt and stop play. Then, we have an obedience break. If a dog keeps wanting to hump, then he goes to timeout and doesn’t get to play anymore.
Here is more on what I do at home to help my dogs get along.
Here is a more general description on what I do to train my Husky puppies.
I live in a rural area and have a young Pitbull that won’t stop harassing my neighbor’s goats/chickens/ducks, and his bad behavior is rubbing off on my good dogs. By the time I can respond in person, he’s home and sucking up to me.
I’m going to have him neutered and try a shock collar to keep him away from other animals. Call it cruel, but it’s either that or a bullet.
I have two dogs about 80 lbs. There are two problems we have can’t seem to fix with them as it is impossible for me to drop everything I do and run out to correct their behavior, as by the time I do, they already stops, or they associate that action with getting my attention.
1. My dogs will run to the fence and bark at the fence when the neighbor let out their dogs. They get so anxious and aggressive that they actually start to turn on each other. Not a full on fight, but definitely shows aggressive barking and biting at each other. I can’t introduce them to the neighbor’s dog because it’s a little dog and the neighbor doesn’t want to.
2. They chase after cats/squirrels and bark up the tree, sometimes lasting for 20 minutes.
I work at home and these behavior are driving me nuts. They are otherwise good dogs, walks great on leashes, no human aggression, no food aggression. We have used ceasar milan methods, but he never addresses these two barking problems. We are thinking of getting the shock collar so when that behavior starts, I can correct it from inside the house, so that they won’t associate ‘human’ with the shock, and if they stops the barking, the shock pain goes away.
If anyone else has any tips on what else I can do, please let me know. I know someone told me to use the hose but I don’t want them to fear water. I’ve throw a can full of coins out to divert their attention but it doesn’t last, they go right back to it.
Here are some of my experiences with dog barking.
Here is one on the Squirrel Instinct.
Thank you for sharing this article. My parents have a Shitzu female named Ruby that is a car chaser. Whenever a car leaves the yard she will chase it down the drive way, they live on acreage. We have tried scolding her and unfortunately she isn’t very food motivated, so we have no idea what to do next. My parents are very worried that she is going to get hit by a car. Someone suggested a shock collar, but I don’t think that is the solution. I would be grateful for any advice you can give me. Thanks!
Jody
Yeah, dogs are very attuned to motion, and those with high prey drive will give chase. Both my Sibes will chase squirrels, cats, birds, etc. Here are some of my experiences in dealing with their prey drive or as I like call it – their “squirrel instinct”. 😀
http://shibashake.com/dog/the-squirrel-instinct-can-it-be-retrained
Recall training is another possible tool. Here is a useful article from the ASPCA that describes all the different recall techniques.
http://aspcabehavior.org/articles/84/Teaching-Your-Dog-to-Come-When-Called-.aspx
Hugs to Ruby!
I have a 3 year old italian greyhound. He has been fairly well behaved. We recently got a “mutt” who was found in the bushes. They play and get along well. When we walk them both together the Italian Greyhound (he is neutered) barks at cars, other dogs, and pulls relentlessly on the leash. he pulled at times on the leash before the new dog, but this is constant. I tried walking backward when he pulls, I tried stopping, lifting him up, and giving him a treat when the leash is loose. He still pulls and “freaks out” as we approach other dogs. Once we get to the other dog he is OK. Considering a shock collar and just not walking them together which means they both get 1/2 the walks, which I don’t want to do. HELP!
My Sibe Lara (over 1 year old) also gets a lot more excited when I walk her with Shiba Inu Sephy. With Lara, she likes being ahead, and she often wants to rush to a person or dog before Sephy gets to them. The “want to do it first” syndrome.
Sometimes, a dog may also feel protective over a new dog and want to evaluate possible threats first, or keep possible threats away.
With Lara, I leash trained her one-on-one. She is getting pretty good at that now, so the next step is I will walk her, and a friend will walk Sephy. In this way, I still have the ability/hands to train her not to pull, while she is walking with Sephy.
The dynamic is different when she is walking with another dog, and it is a more challenging experience for her, so more training is needed. However, I slowly build up to it by leash training her by herself first.
As for shock collars, they are risky to use and can have bad side effects. Studies show that dogs often associate the pain from shock collars to their environment or to the animals and people in that environment; rather than to their own actions. For example, if a dog gets a shock every time he sees another dog, he may associate the shock to the other dog, rather than to his own actions. This may, in turn, lead to fear and aggression issues.
Sephy used to be very reactive to other dogs when he was young. He was reactive even when we walk him by himself. Here are some things that helped Sephy become more calm with other dogs-
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-to-dog-aggression
Hi, I enjoyed reading your views on shock collars and am still unsure what to do. I have 2 – 2 yr old male boxers (same litter) along with a 12 yr old female beagle/terrier mix. My problem is.. the “boys” are now each confined to their own cage. Approx. 8 – 10 mos ago they’ve decided that they both wanted to be the dominant male and try to kill each other every chance they get. Our female has also been attacked by the larger of the two boys. We’ve try clickers, rewards, etc. but once they’ve “locked on” to each other it’s everything we can do to get them apart. We, ourselves have both ended up in the emergency room trying to break up the fights. Costly for all of us! Dog trainers in our area won’t work with them or their methods are very undesirable. The next step is the e-collar. I’m worried that it may make them more agressive. I hate to spend money to find out later that’s it’s not going to improve anything. Any suggestions? We need help… Thank you
With Sephy, I did a lot of dog-to-dog desensitization exercises. The key with desensitization, is to only expose the dog to a small amount of the problem stimulus, small enough that the dog can handle it *without losing control*. Then, we get the dog to focus on us and engage him alternative and positive behaviors. Once the dog is comfortable with the low level stimulus, we can very slowly increase the challenge.
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-to-dog-aggression#desensitize
Desensitization exercises help a dog associate other dogs with more resources and positive outcomes, rather than with pain and fighting. It also helps them build confidence around other dogs, and teaches them to use alternate behaviors when dealing with conflict and stress.
The key is to keep the dog below threshold, because as you say, once the dog has lost control, he is no longer able to listen and learn. Rewards will not work, and neither will any kind of pain punishment. Introducing more pain into a fight will make the dog feel more threatened, and very likely escalate his aggression.
Even in regular training, shock collars are risky to use. Studies show that a dog may associate the shocks to his environment, or to the objects, animals and people around him, rather than to his own behaviors. For example, if a dog gets shocked every time he sees another dog, he may associate the pain to other dogs (rather than to his own reactive behavior) and become even more dog-aggressive.
What helped with Sephy is to carefully manage him and set him up for success. I made sure not to put him in situations that he cannot handle, and where he would resort to aggression. At the same time, I helped him associate other dogs with positive events through very structured desensitization exercises.
At home, I set up very clear rules of interaction between my dogs and I enforce those rules. They are not allowed to hump each other, or steal from each other. During meal times, I make sure they each have their own food toy to work on, and I supervise to prevent stealing. If there are any conflicts between them, they alert me and I will resolve the conflict.
From what you describe, it seems best to do whatever training you decide, under the direction of a good professional trainer. I am not sure why the trainers in the area will not work with them – perhaps you could elaborate? Have you worked with these trainers before? Were there bite incidents with the trainers? Also, what are these undesirable methods?
When I was looking for a trainer, I found the Association of Pet Dog Trainers site to be a useful resource. Here is their trainer search tool-
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/
Thank you for replying to my message. I would love nothing more than to have all of my dogs out of their cages and play and get along like they used to. I can appreciate the desensitizing exercises but unfortunately once they are out together the fights are almost immediate. We’ve tried putting collars and leashes on them and keeping them by each one of us and allow them to get kind of close but all they do is lunge and/or stare each other down. It’s almost like breaking up a fight that hasn’t occurred yet. It gets very stressful between all of us. As far as the “undesirable methods”, I don’t believe in using tools (i.e. reed sticks and shock poles) to get their attention. Another trainer just doesn’t want to undertake such “viciousness” and are afraid they or others will get hurt as we have in the past by trying to break them up. Another one uses methods similar to Cesar Millan and they seem to work while he’s there (we believe the boys are intimidated by having someone else correcting them and are nervous of the situation and that’s why they listen) but as soon as he’s gone they relax and go back to their ways. I’m at my wits end because I know it’s me. Their trying to “own” me and all it’s doing is keeping my babies locked up. Now what? I’m exhausted! Please….. anything you can tell me would be appreciated. Thanks….
The key to desensitization is to use distance to separate the dogs and start from a state where the dogs are far enough that they are totally calm and non-reactive.
With Sephy, I did a lot of training at our local SPCA with one of their trainers. The trainer would have a dog in their quiet enclosed space, on-leash and engaged with her. I have Sephy on-leash with me. We stand far away from the other dog – far enough that Sephy is calm and not reacting to the other dog in any way.
Distance can be used in this way to weaken the stimulus of the other dog. In this way, we start desensitization with a very weakened version of the stimulus, and *very very slowly* work our way up. If the dogs are right next to each other to begin with, then we cannot do desensitization exercises because the stimulus is too strong, and the dogs would have lost control.
With Sephy calm, I can get his attention and get him to focus on me and engaged in doing obedience commands. Then, once we are comfortable at that far distance, I take one little step forward and repeat the exercise. I keep sessions short, and very rewarding so that Sephy views them favorably and looks forward to them. In this way, I slowly condition Sephy to associate other dogs with positive experiences and outcomes.
Here is more on our dog-to-dog desensitization experiences.
It sounds like most of these trainers are very steeped in aversive training. I would consider looking at the other group of trainers that practice leadership through resource control rather than physical force. Look for trainers with credentials from good training organizations, e.g.APDT, AVSAB, KPA, CCPDT.
Desperate situation here! I have had my Katrina rescue pit mix for seven years. She was a year and a half old when we got her; before I took her, I asked if she got along with cats and was assured she did. Wrong (she probably was still too traumatized to react). Along with her other issues (she had not been housebroken, still pees in the house anywhere from three to 10 times a day), she is violently cat aggressive and killed my beloved 11-year-old cat (she broke through a window screen to get to the cat, who was outside on the porch). Our other two cats were safe in a separate apartment with my son, but we had to move and are now all together. The cats are in my bedroom upstairs. My son is putting a metal gate on the stairway and I can put the cats into a middle room she cannot get into when I am at work (I’m 73 but I still work part-time) or out of the house. He wants me to put the dog down. Living like this is crazymaking. I have tried to get her into a sanctuary to no avail. I am considering an electric shock collar because I’m desperate.
Dear Joelle,
Based on most of the things that I have read, it seems that shock collars are very risky to use. One of the big problems with shock collars is that the dog may associate the pain applied, *not* to his own behavior, but rather to the objects, animals, or even people around him. As a result, the dog may form a negative association to those things, and become even more aggressive towards them.
I went through a difficult time with my Shiba Inu Sephy when he was young. During that time, I considered using a shock collar. However, after reading many of the studies that have been conducted on its use, I decided against it based on the high risk involved, as well as degradation to quality of life.
I describe some of the study results in the article above.
Some things that helped me when I was going through difficult times with Sephy –
1. I got help from several local trainers. First, we went in for an evaluation session, and then we had a series a training sessions targeted at each of his problem behaviors.
2. I also did a lot of reading on dog training and dogs in general (both online and from books). I found that talking to other Shiba Inu owners helped a lot. Many of these people have gone through similar experiences as I have, and were able to offer good advice.
3. I very carefully managed Sephy so that I did not expose him to situations that he cannot handle. The more he practices his aggressive behavior, the more likely he will repeat it. Therefore, I want to minimize the number of aggressive incidents.
4. At the same time, I slowly desensitized Sephy to each of his aggression triggers. I focused on only one or two issues at a time so that I did not get overwhelmed.
5. I exercised Sephy well, and provided many structured positive activities where he could drain his energy. In this way, he had less energy to spend on other things.
Since it is not possible to place the dog, another alternative is to find a different home for the cats. Is that a possibility?
Hi I have a 6 month old dalmatian mix and she is very good for the most part, she is half house trained meaning she never poops in the house
But she will pee atleast once a day and I take her out constantly!!!! She also jumps on to the table whenever food is up there and eats it! I don’t allow her to have people food but she just helps her self!!! We have tried the reward system and it works for some things but not for others? I don’t understand why these two things do not register with her to not do them. She is spayed and is up to date with shots and the vet told me that getting her spayed would help with her peeing in the house but it hasn’t! And I have to wet vac my carpets constantly and we live in an apartment so I can’t get a run for her to be outside more!! And with the food thing she constantly has raw hide bones and I feed her twice a day so why is she acting like she is starving? Should I be feeding her more than twice daily? HELP PLEASE!!!!!
I got a new Sibe puppy last year, and she reminded me that the most important thing in potty training is supervision. 😀
We were doing really well on the first day and she didn’t make any mistakes at all. The next day, I let up a bit on supervision, and there were mistakes all over the place. After that I would supervise her all of the time. If I cannot supervise, even for just 1 minute, I put her in her puppy enclosure.
Here is more on our potty training experiences.
As for food, both my Sibes are also very food motivated and will do almost anything for more food. The key, I found, is to only give them food when they are doing good behaviors for me. I make sure to supervise carefully when there is food within reaching distance. Otherwise, I put all food away.
If they keep getting free food by jumping on counters, they are getting rewarded very well for that behavior, which will encourage them to keep repeating it. From their point of view, jumping on table = lots of yummy food.
Another thing that really helps with my dogs is the NILIF program. With NILIF, my dogs only get rewarded with food, attention, and other good stuff after they perform some simple commands for me.
Thank you for this great article. I hoe that you may have some advice, I have a four year old shar-pei. She is not really trained except for basic sit, high five etc and so trying to train her now has been tedious.
We recently moved from a house to an apartment, every time we leave she barks constantly working herself up into a state. We have never had an issue before with barking, chewing etc and now she seems to have picked up all these bad habits. We purchased a bark off, this has not worked.
Any advice is much appreciated,
Thanks,
Faye
Sounds like the barking and chewing could be from stress. My Shiba Inu is the same way, he likes having a fixed routine and becomes stressed when there are changes to that routine. The bigger the change, the more stress. When dogs get stressed, they may chew or bark (displacement behaviors) to help relieve some of that stress. We do the same thing, e.g. some people bite their nails, pull their hair, pace, etc.
Here are some of my experiences with dog barking and dog anxiety.
This was very informative.
I have a jack Russell that we adopted from a local shelter,he goes after people’s feet,even people he knows. It is getting worse as he gets older. He witnessed our golden lab attacked 4 times by our neighbor’s Pitt bulls,and just recently,as of last month,his little play buddy(a puppy given to us) was attacked and killed in our yard by the same Pitts. Toby,my jack Russell,was trying to defend the puppy. Ever since then,he has not been the same. He now attacks my aunts in law dachshund,who Toby has grown up around,the attacking of the feet,and 2 Weeks ago we adopted another baby who is now on the receiving end of aggression. I was seriously thinking if bringing him back to the shelter after a year and a half of him in our family. I also considered shock collars,but now ,I think that may only make matters worse.
Yikes – how did that happen? Were your neighbor’s dogs roaming loose outside his property? It sounds dangerous. Were the incidents reported? Did Animal Care and Control take any action?
Hi, Thank you for your article. It was very informative.
My problem is that I have a dog that otherwise well trained, but is showing signs of people and dog aggression. She has already been in two dog fights in a month, the first she was jumped by someone’s dog who was roaming off leash, the second she attacked her “sister”. I have children in my neighborhood and I am terrified something bad will happen. My trainer recommended a shock collar for those moments when she begins showing aggression.
Do you agree or disagree with this course of action?
My Shiba Inu Sephy was also reactive to other dogs when he was young. I decided against using shock collars because-
1. They are risky to use. If not applied in exactly the right circumstance and with perfect technique and timing they can encourage aggression. For example, Polsky et al. showed that the dogs actually became more aggressive because they associated the shocks to people and animals rather than to their own behavior.
2. They increase stress in dogs and lower quality of life (Schalke’s study)
With Sephy, we used dog-to-dog desensitization exercises, combined with creating neutral experiences during our walks.
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-to-dog-aggression
This is what I do to keep the peace at home with my dogs-
http://shibashake.com/dog/second-dog-introducing-a-second-dog
I loved this article and I even MORE appreciate all the comments people have left and you have taken the time to answer.
I too am looking for some help and answers.
Link is my 1 year old Siberian Husky. Link is extremely well exercised (he runs along side my bike 2-3 times daily for 30-40 minutes at a time) and taken care of. When he is indoors, he is wonderful. When he is on a leash, he does well. When Link is off leash, he is a free spirit! I can not for the life of me get Link to come when called off leash. I have tried treats (he does not respond to any of them outdoors, I have tried praise (it seems to bore him), I have tried “the invisible rope” (he is too dang smart and knows when that rope is not attached to him), I have tried playing tug when he comes (still nothing), I have tried running in the opposite direction and jumping up and down, I just looked stupid with no results.
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT is going to give Link the WANT to come to me. I can not seem to find a reward that will “outweigh” the benefit he feels from running off leash and not coming when called. What rewards if ANY can do this for a Husky? I know they were bred to run, eat little, and think independently. Is there any hope for me to have Link come when called??
He loves to play at the dog park but it is very stressful for me when it comes time to go home. If I try to approach him his runs away. There just doesn’t seem to be ANYTHING I can do to make it worth his while to come to me 🙁 The last visit to the park, thankfully he approached a stranger and the man was nice enough to hold on to Link’s collar till I could get there with his leash.
I SO badly want Link to have everything he enjoys, like playing at the park, but for his safety and my sanity I NEED to be able to have him come when called. I DO NOT want to resort to using a shock collar, it possible side effects seem too cruel. I am willing to work very hard to acheieve a reliable recall, I just need the guidance. Please, PLEASE help Link and I.
Hello Regina,
Here is an article that I like from the ASPCA on all the different recall techniques-
http://aspcabehavior.org/articles/84/Teaching-Your-Dog-to-Come-When-Called-.aspx
I usually start recall training in the backyard, and then very slowly increase the challenge. One thing that may help is to do recall in a structured setting with other dogs. For example, start with one calm dog in the backyard that is doing commands with his own handler.
My Shiba Inu was also very dog focused and we did a fair amount of dog desensitization training with him at our nearby SPCA. We started with a calm dog that was engaged with his SPCA trainer, then we slowly increased the challenge as his recall improved.
Many dogs learn that when they get called to “Come” it means that the park fun is over and they have to go home. They may get a treat, but a treat is not as good as playing at the park. Therefore, another useful exercise we did was call Sephy to come to us many times during his SPCA play session. If he comes he gets rewarded well and then he gets the best reward ever, which is to go back to playing. If he does not come, then play stops for a brief time and he has to do a set of commands, or do a brief mini timeout. Then we try again. This teaches him that –
“coming” = get rewarded with more play, whereas
“not coming” = play stops.
However, I do also want to say that going from a structured training scenario into an unstructured dog park situation is a big leap. Most of the dogs at the enclosed dog parks I have visited are not under good owner control or even supervised at all. Sephy ended up unlearning a lot of his lessons and also picking up a lot of bad habits at the enclosed park. He does a lot better with smaller, more highly supervised play groups, which is what we do today. We also do on-leash walks in non-enclosed hiking parks.
Here is more on our dog park experiences-
http://shibashake.com/dog/enclosed-dog-parks-good-or-bad
I was wondering if maybe you could help me with one of my two dachshunds. They are 3 years old and sisters. I bought them from a pet store at 6 months old (they were in there for 4 months). They have never really been apart other than for a few hours at a time. They are crate trained and share the same crate while we are out and for the night. Both dogs are not dominant but one is naturally very submissive and nervous. The other is the problem dog, she is the instigator, the submissive dog is very obedient and eager to please but as soon as her sister does something bad she will follow.
The “bad” dog has two issues, she barks at every little noise she hears, also when loose she runs at people and dogs as well as barks at them (they are really friendly dogs and do not attack, just run and bark). She has also chased cars down the street and just last week ran across a busy street after a dog and person after she broke loose and was almost hit by a car.
She does have an automatic anti-bark collar and knows not to bark when it is on, she also knows how to work it so she can still do a slight woof without receiving a shock. It truly does not get to the route of the problem as she still is doing these bad behaviors.
She behaves a lot better when her nervous sister is not around so I feel as though it may be some sort of protection for her sister.
They both listen well with everything else, it’s just this barking thing.
Any recommendations on how to curb this problem for good? I would love to allow her off leash and not have to worry about her barking at/chasing people!
Hello Jillian,
Yeah, Dachshunds have a very keen sense of smell and it is their instinct to follow their nose. I hear that the same is true of Beagles, which make it difficult to fully trust them off-leash. This site has some good information on the Dachshund personality-
http://www.allamericandachshundrescue.org/info/display?PageID=2944
Here are some of my experiences with barking-
http://shibashake.com/dog/woof-woof-stop-dog-barking
People desensitization exercises may also be helpful-
http://shibashake.com/dog/how-to-calm-a-fearful-reactive-dog#people
Hi,
i need some help. Our Standard schnauzer is very territorial. She barks at everything that comes up and down our street whether it be a car, bicycle or people. She will bark at birds flying above our house and lizards. This, however, is not even the biggest problem. When people come over she attacks them, she actually bites them and i can’t stop her. I feel really bad all the time, no one wants to visit any more becuase of her. I have tried all different types of training, but nothing ever seems to work. we have found out that she has fear aggresion. Will a barking collar help or hinder our situation? Will it make her stop attacking people when they walk through the gate, becuase when she attacks people she barks at them as well. She barks at anything and everything. Please help!
Hmmm, can you elaborate?
For dogs with fear aggression issues, desensitization exercises can be helpful.
http://shibashake.com/dog/how-to-calm-a-fearful-reactive-dog
Administering a shock or some other aversive stimulus may make an already fearful dog even more fearful, and runs the risk of causing more aggression. This was shown by Polsky’s study.
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-shock-collar-good-bad#aggression
In such situations, it may be very helpful to get a professional trainer to come and observe the dog. A good trainer will be able to read the dog’s body language and identify what events are triggering the aggressive behavior. Then we can slowly desensitize our dog to those triggers and help her gain confidence.
Shibashake,
I have an 8 month old AKC husky. He has a really bad problem with excessive and nuisance barking. We live in a semi-suburban area that contains many houses. He refuses to be quiet in his crate inside (even after reward training) and will not be quiet outside unless you are out there with him at all times. How do I fix this problem with him before our landlady gets a complaint from our neighbors and forces us to leave? I’ve tried the TERMINATOR 2 bark collar, he took the battery case cover and the battery out in the backyard. I’ve also tried audible correction with a smack on the top of the nose when he does it if I’m outside with him and he still does it. What can we do? Please email me back. Thanks.
Hello Casey,
My younger Husky, Lara, is also very vocal. Taking her on long walks every day helps a lot. I also make her work for all of her food, and I institute the NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) program at home. She is less likely to make a fuss when she has had a full day of activity.
I also taught her the Quiet command so that her barking is under behavioral control.
Good review. Well written. I am glad you came to the conclusion that there is a better way! As a certified professional clicker trainer, and a trainer whose method has evolved from military-style, force-based “yank and thank” training to positive reinforcement to The Third Way and finally to clicker training as taught in the Karen Pryor Academy I am definitely of the school of thought that the risks of aversive, force-based training far outweigh the benefits. Clicker training is a far more effective and versatile method of training than correction-based training. Further, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior and the American College of Animal Behaviorists advise against using trainers who use shock collars, choke chain collars and prong collars as well as dominance-based methods such as those used by Cesar Millan.
I have a siberian husky 6.5 week old puppy. The best way to describe him and our situation is exactly like Milo who posted the other day here. My sib. puppy however, JUST ROCKET LAUNCHES at the food when he see’s it. He is trained to sit but when he see’s the full amount of food, not shielded by my hand, he sits, unless its close, he goes nuts and the moment I put it in the bowl it’s like he has NEVER EATEN. and I am certainly feeding him right… vets told me 1- 1.5 cups of the specific dog food per day.. I am up to 1.5 now and i mix in rice and sometimes potatoes. But i don’t over do it. Is this his reaction due to me always hand feeding him slowly bit by bit over a course of 4-10 minutes, for at least 1 of the 3 meals a day. Originally I was doing it for the majority of his meals. Is this bad? He will go in his crate to eat…. but he just POUNDS it down without even chewing it,,, which is why i also like hand feeding because he will actually crunch it in his teeth if it’s not over 2 kibbles at a time..otherwise its just full force into the hand, no chewing, just super fast swallowing.
Hello Apkallu,
Congratulations on your new Sibe puppy!
Both my Sibes also love eating food and will inhale their food if they could. However, I find that it is best to make them work for *all* of their food.
I use their daily food portions for obedience training, bite inhibition training, handling exercises, grooming, play rewards, during walks, and other activities. Whatever is left over, I put in interactive food toys.
In this way, they learn that Nothing in Life is Free, and that they get what they want most by working for me, and cooperating with me. It also slows down the speed of their eating, which as I understand it, is more healthy.
Shibashake,
I recently got a sweet little 6 week male Siberian Husky companion.
I am a college student living in a condo, I do have the time for him and his stimulation, except that I would like to be able to go to work for 3 hours without him being a crate crying the whole time. He doesn’t whine out of the crate if I’m gone, but he eats stuff he shouldn’t, and there is a 40% chance he will do business in the non-designated spot. I guess then my problem doesn’t lie with getting him to not cry when in a crate (impossible, he will cry…i tested it today, left him in there…after 20 minutes of pure volume and in so many different melodies I casually without making eye contact slowly made my way to him. Even in front of him he still would whine..if he stopped for a second I would put my hand in and start petting him, so if he started up it was just a whimper..eventually got him to sleep but this doesn’t seem right… its a giant crate… can’t put it in room at night, so he sleeps with us.. so here I am with a few ideas…
-I could train him while he is IN his cage, with positive reinforcement of snacks..but train him to do what? bark on command? so he wont bark when not asked? or wouldn’t that teach him that barking gets him treats?
He is smart, I already taught him to sit by using positive reinforcement, even to stay… but he gets the two mixed up so am sticking with just sit for now..and might change the word stay to HOLD, or WAIT.
-I could just not crate train him… he isn’t scared of the crate, he goes in it to eat, and walks in there by himself,,, just doesn’t like it closed with him inside it. Rather than crate train, just let him keep at what he’s doing, and just keep working on potty training and not chewing up stuff while gone… because I’m sure he will not bark.
To sum it up, my biggest fear is him yelping while i’m gone and getting me kicked out for that reason… he is a husky after all and will howl cause it is natural for him… but where he does it should be something I can enforce through positive training. He is definitely one of the most intelligent dogs I have personally known. His problem is just making sounds I thought only a human could make with practice..
Any help with what I should do or ideas or something I’m not thinking of that I could do would be VERY much appreciated!
Hello Milo,
My Sibes will go into their crate at night to sleep, but during the day they do not go in there (unless something is wrong). My younger Sibe Lara especially likes to pace, so she likes being in the house or backyard where she can move around.
During the times when I am not home, I usually put puppy in a long-term enclosure or room. I make sure there is nothing dangerous in the enclosure. I put safe chew toys and safe interactive food toys in there. I also put some bedding, puppy pads, and water.
In terms of training not to bark, one way to do this is to teach a dog the Quiet command.
http://shibashake.com/dog/woof-woof-stop-dog-barking#quiet
Here is what I do to get my dogs used to their crates-
http://shibashake.com/dog/how-to-calm-a-fearful-reactive-dog#crate
In general, I try to set them up for success so that they do not whine while in the crate. If they start whining, then I wait until they stop before giving them any attention, even eye contact. Often, I will also reward my dogs for staying calm and resting quietly. This teaches them that-
Whine = No attention
Stay calm and quiet = Attention, play, and other rewards.
Dear Shibashake,
I really need your advice. We have a Terrier mix that is sooo sweet to us. He loves our one-year old, does not show aggression when you go near his food bowl, and is so gentle with us. But (big but) he dislikes strangers. Usually when someone comes over to visit I tell them to ignore him. When they do he eventually warms up to them within minutes and wants to be pet. This usually works well with grown ups but he is really scared of kids. When our niece comes over he is so scared of her and aggressive. We tell her not to pet him and he usually avoids her when she’s running around the house. Yesterday a group of kids were playing in front of our house and the gate was open in the yard. We are very careful with keeping it closed but my husband was doing yard work and I didn’t know that the gate was open. Next thing we know he is barking like crazy and he bit one of the kids! It wasn’t a serious bite. He was just bruised a little but did not bleed. But oh my god I was so worried. I’ve been worrying about it since. The child was fine and was playing shortly after I gave him ice. I have thought about getting a shock collar before and decided not to. But now I am really considering it. I have contacted dog behavior specialists and can’t really afford them. Would you recommend a shock collar? And if not, how should I specifically train him with positive reinforcement. If he runs up to the gate and barks at people, how should i stop him? We love our dog and really want to correct this behavior. Any advise would be appreciated! thanks.
Hello Vanessa,
I decided against using shock collars for my dog because-
1. It may increase stress and lowers quality of life.
2. It is very risky and may worsen aggression issues.
3. It may negatively impact our bond with our dog.
In terms of getting a dog more comfortable with people, desensitization exercises have worked out well with my dogs.
http://shibashake.com/dog/how-to-calm-a-fearful-reactive-dog#people
People desensitization exercises help the dog to re-associate positive events with the fearful stimulus so that he can gain confidence, and deal with stressful situations by using alternative behaviors rather than aggression. During desensitization though, it is important to manage our dog so that he does not get exposed to situations that will cause him to get fearful and lose control.
The key is to set our dog up for success by maximizing positive controlled events, and minimizing negative events where the dog feels overwhelmed.
Hello, I appreciate your article. I have a almost 2-yr-old Westie/Yorkie mix, whose main problem is barking. I tried many methods of training her to stop barking, and finally gave in a while ago and bought a remote controlled bark collar. I wanted to have some control over when the shock was applied, since I don’t want her to necessarily stop barking COMPLETELY (i.e. if someone is at the door.) I found it to be largely ineffective though for several reasons. First of all, it was difficult to keep track of the small remote and always have it with me. Secondly, it is hard to always be in range of the dog, and respond promptly. I also found that she seemed to get a bad attitude whenever it was applied. She would skulk around me, and sometimes even bark defiantly at me, even though I’d be right there in front of her holding the remote. We gave up on the bark collar for several months, until just the other day when we bought another bark collar. This one is automatic, not remote controlled. I have yet to see the results of this endeavor, but so far she has sulked around all day, and not been her usual cheerful self. Sure, she hasn’t barked much (except at our neighbor in the hall), but she hasn’t brought me the ball either, or shown an interest in licking my cereal bowl, or any of her usual little habits. She’s just slept all day.
So my question is this: how do you train a dog to NOT bark, using POSITIVE reinforcement? For example, one of her big problems is when she sees people she doesn’t know (our neighbors in the hall for example) she explodes away from me and barks like a maniac. I can curb the running away by leashing her, but nothing I do or say will stop her barking at them while they are still in sight. I understand the positive behavior results in positive reinforcement idea, but when she never exhibits positive behavior in these circumstances, what are you to do?
I appreciate your non-threatening responses to all of these comments, by the way. You answer each question carefully, and I appreciate your taking the time to answer mine! I love my doggie dearly, and don’t want to spoil her cheerful little spirit in my endeavors to make curb her barking habits!
Hello Abigail,
Thanks for sharing your shock collar experiences with us.
In terms of barking, it would depend some on what the dog is barking at, why the dog is barking, and what we want the dog to do instead. For example, barking at people on walks is different from alerting us that there are people around our house. The first is usually the result of excitement or fear, while the second is to alert the pack.
My Shiba Inu barks when there are unusual things happening around the house, but he does not bark at people during walks. One of my Sibes bark when she gets overly excited, as a way of releasing some of her excited energy.
It sounds like she may be fearful of strangers. Smaller dogs may feel more threatened because people are relatively much larger, especially when they are standing up, looming over them, and staring at them (giving eye contact). That is why when meeting new dogs it is best to practice “no talk, no touch, and no eye-contact”.
Dogs may sometimes also bark out of excitement. To tell the difference we want to look at the dog’s body language. Is her tail up? Is she trying to approach or is she trying to get the person to stay away?
Some things that may help-
1. People desensitization exercises. We only expose the dog to small amounts of the problem stimulus, and train her to focus on us and stay calm. Once she can tolerate low levels of the stimulus, we slowly increase its intensity.
2. Achieve better control over the barking behavior with the Quiet command, and by teaching the dog to use alternate behaviors.
http://shibashake.com/dog/woof-woof-stop-dog-barking
3. Slowly socialize the dog to new people, new experiences, and new things so that she gains confidence and becomes less fearful.
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-socialization-what-why-how
Shiba Shake,
I need help with my 2 yr old Siberian Huskey, every chance he gets he runs away. I have recently had to incidents where police were involved because my dog got off his chain or escaped when one of my kids left the door open. He has an attitude problem as well when you chase after him or try and stop him, so I’m seriously thinking of the Shock collar for training him to stay either indoors while the door is open and in his yard. I would use the collar tempararly until he knows what’s good and bad. The Huskies that are across the street from us were both trained on shock collars and they now dont have a collar nor leash on and are obedient. Advice please!
Here are some of my experiences on why and how to stop dog escapes.
As for shock collars, I decided not to use them on my own dogs because of the risks listed in the article above, including increases in stress levels, and a greater tendency for aggression.
My end goal is to give my dogs a good quality of life, and I am able to achieve this with alternative methods that are less risky.
I’m very excited to use our E collar. I have lost all trust in our pit mix who recently bit our new puppy and likes to run and attack other dogs. I feel that I can’t even take him for runs even on his lead anymore. The E collar will help me gain confidence and control again.
Referring to your post on Dog Shock Collar – The Good and The Bad, could help but write to say I totally agree with your conclusion. There are many other alternatives to train your dog and it is difficult to justify the use of shock collars. Love your post and glad your postive rewards based methods are working for you. Cheers
I have a friend that’s so persistent to fight with me over this subject. I’ve tried convincing her to use positive reinforcement on her pup(chocolate lab that is under a year old) but she thinks I’m just talking out of my rear. Because I never “raised a hunting dog”. Honestly it gets under my skin because she thinks its alright to shock him whenever he decides to chew because well like any other puppy he chews and she fails at puppy proofing the house. What can I do to convince her that what she is doing is wrong and any advice on curbing the “chewing stage”
Hello fennec-fox,
When people ask me about shock collars, I just tell them about my own decision making process, the scientific studies I came across, and how I made my decision.
With dogs, as with children, there are many strong feelings and also a lot of ego involved. It is often more difficult to receive advice from a friend, than from a third party, e.g. a trainer, author. I am currently reading the book Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know
by Alexandra Horowitz. In it, Horowitz talks a lot about understanding the world from our dog’s point of view (or umvelt). Another book that I like is Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs
by Suzanne Clothier. Clothier’s book really changed my point of view on dogs. Perhaps these books may help.
In terms of chewing, puppies do not know what things are acceptable to us to chew, and which are not. Therefore, it is up to us to teach them our very human rules. Usually I no-mark my puppy (ack-ack) and redirect him into biting on something acceptable. If he redirects, I reward him with attention and a favorite game. Other techniques include teaching him the Leave-It and Drop commands, and playing the object exchange game.
used it twice in a very very long time BUT
the dogs learned first with reward training what to do instead of their selfrewarding and dangerous misbehaviour:
Malinois, strong in coping with aversive stimuli during high level agitation,chasing and nipping people on bicycles, joggers, running after horses.. learned at the same time a very strong recall with a whistle / play with the ball connection. Alas it was 20 years ago and reward training was really frowned upon by many. I used the shock collar for one afternoon on everything she chased after voluntarily after her having it on for 4 weeks without anything happening. I hit the button when she got to her target to be absolutely sure her focus was right on it.
Afterwards I intensified rewarding her for staying with me or just plain ignore the formerly chased objects.
What I didn’t know then – I could have clicker trained her to willingly look away when seeing something to chase after. It might have worked then. It sure did years later because, of course the shock treatment didn’t last forever as she was a strong bitch and overcame her fear.
Secondly I used it with my Spitz who was chasing after cows and sheep, she saw at great distances or when she stopped running after crows she found herself close to milk cows or worse, mother cows. She is also very strong on getting over aversives which was obvious as she had some accidents which hurt. To make the shock collar useful and not only painful, she learned first what to do instead of running after cows and other livestock. I shocked her only very very close to her “prey”. She never ever has run after any of them since then which is over 6 years ago this spring. BUT BUT BUT: I help her since then to ignore them by rewarding her in difficult situations with livestock esp. in spring when the cows are quite frisky to be out again.
So, I think shok collars can become a very effective tool if combined with sound and tireless reward training when the dog already knows the alternative, and therefore can choose not to run the risk to get shoked againg.
Because there are other scientifique realities that say: If you think you get a reward and you don’t get it, you get frustrated or even angry.
On the other hand: If you know how to avert punishment(shocked) you are relieved.
Anti-Bark-Collars: They are really bad, because a dog barking is NOT concentrating on the barking but on the object/situation causing the bark. Wrong associations and fear or aggression are most often the result. Or less obvious a stressed fearful animal which goes into freeze.
That is a discrmination many people do not seem to be aware of: Dogs do not concentrate on their behaviour but on the environment. So must often punishment does not really decrease the behavour but intensifies it.
And sometimes I think people rationalize this occurance by thinking: Thank god did I punish him, if the behaviour got that bad although I am punishing him, how bad would it have gotten if I had done nothing?
You might think now I am keen on e-collar-training. I am not. My dogs get rewarded on a daily bases for doing NOTHING on walks – because they could be doing loads of stuff I don’t like instead. Ever thought about it?
My Spitz thinks everything I say outside means “food” even if I am swearing very loud and angry because she ran off to gobble up some half-rotten-food again! She runs back as fast as she can to get even more food from me :-).
Cheers
Roswitha
i have a beagle and he does good walking around the neighborhood but he likes to run away and we have a fenced backyard just for him but i think someone is letting him out because he cand work the lock on the gate we just got him back from the dog pound he hasnt ran scence
Yeah, beagles often get so involved in following scent, that they will let their nose lead them anywhere.
More on how I stop my dogs from escaping.
Hmmm. I don’t know. This piece strikes me as an anti-shock collar person reaching a foregone conclusion, namely that shock collars are bad. It seems a lot like a debate about whether you ought to spank your child.
Lots of things are bad if used incorrectly. I have a border collie/golden retriever cross who is almost unbelievably willful. I’ve been using the collar for three years with him, and it’s the only way he’ll obey. I think in that time I’ve only shocked him with the momentary “nick” twice, both times when he was about to run out into heavy traffic.
Instead, what I do is to walk him on a leash attached to his collar. The instant he pulls (or lifts my resting arm), I give him a vibrate. He hates the vibration (which is NOT a shock), and instantly ceases to pull.
For my wife, who has an ongoing carpal tunnel issue, it has been a godsend.
Dear Wodeshed,
The reason why I looked into shock collars in the first place, was because I had a difficult dog (a Shiba Inu) and I wanted to explore if shock collars would help solve some of our problems. As I described above, there are certain aspects about shock collars that are very tempting.
However, based on all the scientific data and provable facts that I found, I decided that shock collars are not appropriate for the type of relationship and lifestyle I want to establish for my dogs. After reading Polsky’s and Schalke’s studies, I decided that the risks involved far outweighed any potential benefits, except perhaps for very simple aversion training. If you have data that proves otherwise, or if you have any information that I missed, please let me know. I always want to make the best informed decision for my dogs.
As for vibrate vs. shock, I highlighted the differences between the two modes in the article above. I also stated –
Note that the subsequent discussion is solely based on the shock functionality of electronic collars (not on the beep and vibrate modes).
As I stated above, based on careful consideration of the data and studies I have read, I do not think that shock collars are appropriate for my dogs. That does not seem like a foregone conclusion to me, but perhaps I am missing something. If so, please let me know.
My goal, as always, is to give my dogs the best quality of life that I can, which I imagine is the goal of most dog owners as well as parents.
E-collars are so hard to use right. Like you say, clear association with the problem is needed. My small mixed breed went after chicken. Two shocks timed perfectly fixed that problem for good. So for everyone who need to put a stop to dog chasing/killing chicken, this is the way to go. I know it’s a severe issue and a problem for many in rural areas where dog who kills chiken(or any other farm animal) is highly likely to be put down if not corrected completely.
Well said and succinctly put.
Interesting about the chicken aversion training.
We have had a dog fence around our property for 3 years for a little Sheba, Echo. He adapted to it very easily as there is an existing barb wire fence there so the boundary is visable. So, this winter he sees a coyote and runs thru it and now goes thru…..but we have thinned his fur and tightened the collar and seems ok again. He will spend most of the day outside and can open the door of our house when he wants in 🙂 his 5 acres are his..he will share with the neighbors horses when they are put then in our paddock in summer to eat down the growth and is quite unhappy when they leave,he will lay with them and quite enjoy thier company. We have always been positive with him as he gets so upset when we are unhappy with him,, scolding is just a terrible thing for him! When out he has never come back but today I purchased a Petsafe ultra sonic pet trainer with a negative and positive button and when he got past the fence I pushed the positive button a few times and miraculously he came back and was one the move 100 feet away when I did it,,,,wow. I think it is uncomfortable but for whatever reason he comes back. I used one other time today when on his little track and usually ignores everyone and he came back again! Not sure what to say other than very cool! Will use it very sparingly only as last ditch thing, but wanted to let other shiba owners know about it.
Dear Alexia
As you have not told us so, I hope you help your dog to avoid chickens and the lure to go after them again. Because one of the facts of live is, almost every dog desensitizes itself if the lure is great or often presented without anything bad happening and no alternative behaviour is learned. And shocked too often your dog will get used to the pain or get stressed out because one day the connection won’t be so clear cut.
Greetings
Roswitha
I have a Shiba and she has slipped out the door twice and obviously doesn’t listen when we call her. She just takes off. Thankfully we’ve found her both times. We are very careful when opening doors, but she has gotten past us. I’m at my wits end and can’t keep going through this. Any advice?
Hello Sam,
Some things that I do with my Shiba that may help –
1. Use a drag-lead
When Sephy was young, I put a drag-lead on him. When I go to open the door, I make sure I have his drag lead in hand. I also make sure he does not crowd the door before I open it. If he tries to bolt out the door, he goes to time-out.
Escaping out the door is a self reinforcing behavior. As a dog makes more successful escapes, the more likely he is to repeat that behavior. Therefore, to stop the behavior, we want to consistently prevent escapes, as well as teach our dog that if he tries to bolt, he loses his freedom in the house. However, if he stays away from the door and does not try to run out, then we want to reward him with play and very good treats. In this way, he learns that not-escaping is very rewarding, but trying to escape is not.
2. Practice door manners every time before going out for walks.
Another thing that helped with Sephy is to practice door manners with him before we go out. Before the walk, he has to sit by the door and stay. I put on his collar and leash. Then I hold the leash and he has to stay while I open the door and put on my shoes. If he does not, I no-mark (Ack-ack) and close the door. Then we wait a bit by the door before I try again. If he keeps trying to bolt then I leave, and he doesn’t get to go on his fun walk until later.
This gets Sephy into the habit of waiting nicely by the door and not bolting out.
I appreciate the effort you’ve gone to here to lay out the pros and cons – including useful research – fairly dispassionately. In my life I’ve lost one dog to a vehicle and another nearly so. We currently having a steep 1-acre semi-rural yard which is nearly impossible to make dog-proof. Thus, I feel I need more tools in the chest than just our voices – which our year-old terrier is good at ignoring. “Come” just seems to be not in her vocabulary, even after months of positive reinforcement.
But your article persuades me to be very specific and moderate in what we use on the new tone/vibrate/shock collar. And using the tone in association with treats (just as we’ve been doing for “Come”) is a fine idea.
Hello Peter,
Glad you found the article to be helpful, and thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us.
Hugs to your Terrier-girl.
I have a huskey, he is a year old. He is perfect in every way its just his recall that let’s him down. I know before.
Him down. I knew before I got him that this would be a problem. It’s just seeing him off the lead playing with other dogs makes me feel so happy knowing he is enjoying himself. When it comes to getting him back on the lead its a night mare. I have tried treats his favourite toys he just plays silly bugggers. Question is will a electric collar work and solve all my problems.
Here are a couple of articles I wrote on this –
Are Off-Leash Dogs Happier Than On-Leash Dogs?
Do Some Dogs Need a Shock?
Hi, we have a 1 year old husky malamute cross…he is very good with sit, lie, high five, spin etc and will respond to ‘come’ when no other dogs are around so we can let him off the lead but if he sees another dog he totally ignores us and wants to play with the other dog..the thing is not all dogs want to play. We just bought a shock collar for him but aren’t sure whether to use it or not. Will it make him scared? Or is it a good idea? Can someone help?. 🙂
Hello Sally and Jamie,
I considered using shock collars on my Shiba Inu when he was younger. However, I decided against it after reading Polsky’s and Schalke’s study on it.
One of the key dangers of shock collars is that the dog may associate the pain with the wrong event. For example, our dog sees another dog and then starts to move towards him, at that point he gets shocked. After this happens many times he may start to associate seeing other dogs with the shock. This may in turn result in aggression towards other dogs. This result was shown in Polsky’s study.
Another key concern with shock collars is that they significantly increase stress in dogs, thereby decreasing quality of life. This was shown in Schalke’s study.
Here is another article on why I chose not to use shock collars-
http://shibashake.com/dog/do-some-dogs-need-a-shock
I still have a question… How can you train a dog that is 3 years old and 8 years old not to go out where you don’t want them to go? My beagle is 8 and me retriever is 3. They love going out in the woods where the hunters are. I sometimes worry about them because if I don’t keep them inside or keep one dog tied up, they’ll be gone for the whole day. They are good dogs otherwise. The retriever is very obedient except when she is chasing a animal that she wants… I just can’t see any other thing that will help except a shock collar.
There are a fair number of problems with the “invisible fence” or shock containment system.
1. It is not a full-proof containment system. Some dogs learn that if they can endure the initial shocks, they can get away. Then once they escape, they are rewarded with no-shocks.
2. It has a high risk of encouraging aggression as is shown by Polsky’s study which is specifically on shock containment systems.
3. It can cause the dog to become fearful of the shock environment.
4. It can significantly increase stress and lower quality of life.
5. It only keeps the dog in and does not keep wild animals out.
Alternatives to using a shock containment system is to fence up a smaller area to act as a backyard and the dogs’ play area. Then we can take them out for regular supervised walks in the woods.
I very much enjoy the walks that I have with my dogs. They help me go up hills, they keep me company, and they also help keep away the coyotes.
One thing I have a question. How can I teach my golden retriever (who is a 3 year old, 4 in Jan) to stay in our yard? She does very well at coming when shes called. I don’t want her getting shot in deer season. I just don’t see any way to escape not getting a shock collar…
I have a 9 month old bulldog who is so sweet. He will lick you to death an is awesome when it comes to listening for the most part, his only issue is when he is around another dog, he is very dominate. He has never bit a dog but he pins them down an sounds like a Tasmanian devil while he is doing it, i’m scared one day he will bite tho. When walking him he is good most of the time but sometimes he pulls to get to another dog an he sounds mean. What do you suggest I do to stop that behavior?? I have tried the sit stay when i see a dog coming an food rewards but when he is in the zone its hard to get him out. I was going to try the shock collar but not sure cause I don’t know how to use it…like when timing wise..Do you think it would be a good idea??
Hello Robin,
Yeah, my Shiba Inu was also reactive to other dogs when he was young. I did consider using the shock collar, but ultimately decided against it for the reasons listed above.
Some things that helped with my Shiba’s dog-to-dog aggression issues –
1. Doing dog-to-dog desensitization exercises.
http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-to-dog-aggression#desensitize
2. Creating neutral experiences during walks.
Rather than stopping to meet and greet dogs, we just ignore them and move along.
3. Identify his social triggers and set him up for success.
I try to observe my dogs closely and see what they like and dislike. For example, I have observed that my Shiba really dislikes dominant dogs and dominant gestures, e.g. the butt sniff. Therefore, I do not let new dogs sniff his butt. I protect him from rude encounters so that he does not have to use aggression to protect himself.
Here is more on our dog-to-dog meeting experiences –
http://shibashake.hubpages.com/_srec/hub/How-to-Deal-With-Dog-to-Dog-Aggression-Aggressive-Dog-Bite-Biting-Dog
I used to not believe in shock collars until just a couple days ago one of my dogs broke loose from me ran out in the street and got ran over by a car just a couple of feet from me getting there to grab her.She was a little 3 lb chihuahua who lived in pain for ten more minutes and died in my arms.I could feel her little broke ribs and watched the blood pour from her mouth from the internal bleeding and felt her little heart beat slow then come to a stop as she passed.I have another dog who will fight the leash and me if i put one on him and likes to run off across the street into the field across from my house.i went today and bought a shock collar and so far so good he has not tried to run out in the street all it took was 1 warning beep and 1 shock now everytime he hears the warning beep he stays away from the street.I will not watch another dog die!as far as sit and stay training i will not be useing the collar just good ol hot dogs.its only for the purpose of keeping him away from the street if he breaks loose from me.
Hello Wolf Pack,
I think what you say here is key. When properly applied, under human supervision, and with the correct timing and pain setting, shock collars can be helpful for the very limited case of aversion training – e.g. don’t go near snakes, or don’t go near the street.
The scientific data actually supports this and shows that for the case of simple aversion training, there is less risk and less stress.
However, as you say for anything more complex, shock collars become risky and can lead to a whole host of other problems. In those cases, it is clear that there are much better and more effective ways for training or rehabilitating a dog.
until experience death of animal from him running after another animal innocently & not being able to stop him for his own safety, you could not understand this safety measure tool. with anything, use only when necessary in emergency situation as such:(
A collar and leash are great as safety measure tools, and no shocks are necessary.
Thanks for the GREAT article! I work with shibas and do my best to educate adopters of the potential risk in using e-collars. In my experience, the primitive breeds do not adjust well to these types of training devices. A shiba with a broken spirit can become highly aggressive to both humans and animals. Their high prey drive puts them in a “zone” when they spot small animals and they cannot be trusted off-leash, even with the use of an e-device. My opinion is that if a fenced-in yard is not available, participate in leashed exercise (walks, runs, SUPERVISED play on a tie-out).
What you say is so very true.
Shiba Sephy responds really badly to any kind of pain-based aversive training. He sees that as a threat and starts to fight back. It also significantly erodes his trust in people. I will always regret using aversive techniques on him when he was young.
For the longest time I have been opposed to shock collars. I have never worked with a dog that after obedience training and just normal maturing that most behaviors went away. Our newest addition we have had for two years, gone through training and everything with still insists on running away. She typically goes to one of two places. One of which leads her towards a very busy road. After talking with my trainer she said what is more humane a dog hit by a car or a zapped dog? I have not used the collar yet and after 8 months of continually taking my dog out on a leash on our 3 acre property, I let her play in the snow yesterday. She after 8 months ran towards the fence, hopped over it and as I called for her and did all the positive reinforcement I could squeaking toys, telling her she could have treats she wouldn’t even look at me as she ran, sniffed and ignored me. In the yard on a 30ft line she listens, and comes to me without a tug on the rope. Loose she takes off! Hoping she can join my other border collie in trail riding eventually however I just can’t trust her to be wise enough to stay out of the road and listen to me when it is most important.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us Lyndi.
To be sure, this is a difficult decision. My Siberian also has high prey drive so when she spots a squirrel or a deer, she is off and doesn’t look back until much later. Otherwise, she likes to stay close to her people. Squirrels really aren’t the problem because they usually run up the nearest tree, but a deer will run forever, and so will a Siberian.
Even with a shock collar, it is unclear how much that will stop a Sibe’s strong prey instinct. A running deer is an extremely strong stimulus to overcome. Plus, that runs the risk of her associating the shocks with going hiking in the hills. This is not to say that once a shock collar is used, dogs lose all capacity for joy. Indeed, dogs are very adaptable, even to pain. But shock collars do increase stress because the dog is usually unsure when and where the next shock will come from.
Ultimately, I decided that the risk and cost of shock collars were not worth their uncertain rewards. Now we only go on leashed walks and have off-leash time in fully enclosed areas. This is a personal decision though, and the situation will be different for each dog-owner pair. However, the dangers posed by shock collars are real and should not be glossed over – which was the main reason for this article.
You clearly know a lot about training and have put in a lot of time with your girl. She is lucky to have someone like you looking out for her. Let us know how things turn out.
Dog training is a totally personal issue for people, every bit as much as raising kids since that’s essentially what we’re doing. This is very similar to the spank or no spanking debate with kids.
Here’s what I believe, and you are free to take it or leave it, I just wanted to present my point of view.
It’s extremely important to know your dog. I would NEVER recommend any kind of aversion training until after the age of 2 for any dog because their personalities are not fully in tact before then (would you agree?). However, after that point, you need to have a full grasp on who your dog is, what they can or cannot tolerate and HOW any kind of training will affect them.
I have a Schnauzer. He’s a terrier.. and therefore very strong willed. He’s sensitive, too, and has no desire to disobey and get in trouble but sometimes he just can’t help himself when a dog/cat/squirrel/or even leaf blows by him. I can see the struggle within him as he tries to obey as I am correcting him verbally, but I usually lose. And every time you lose a battle with your dog, he doesn’t forget it. All he’s learning is that he has control (and you can’t reprimand him when he does come back because he DID come back…just not when you wanted).
So, this is just a long-winded way of saying that I believe in everything IN MODERATION. No matter what kind of training you try, start on the lowest level if it’s aversion training. And only use it for specific stimuli. Decide what is the most important behavior to correct and use the vibration (that’s all I know my sensitive dog can handle) only for that. Don’t start zapping them for barking, growling, jumping…etc. I think you can handle aversion training properly without harming or stressing your dogs.. just approach it like a child. NEVER push that button when you’re angry. Just like you’d never spank your child until you had calmed down.
If you’re in the wrong state of mind when you correct your dog, nothing will happen except instilling stress and fear in him. Honestly, just like eating junk food or drinking soda.. it’s all fine as long as it’s not excessive.
Thanks for listening. Go out and train effectively. 🙂
Hello Dog Lover,
You bring up some great points about dog training.
1. Tailor the training to suit the dog. There is no one-size fits all approach.
2. Don’t correct a dog when you are angry. Patience is key in dog training.
3. Use a balanced approach. Don’t over-correct and don’t under correct.
4. Aversive training should not be performed on overly young dogs. My first trainer (an aversive trainer), told us that we shouldn’t start with collar corrections until after the dog is about 8 months old.
I think shock collars tend to be a risky proposition. As with so many other aversive techniques, they often get misused. Alpha rolls is another one. This is not to say that they will never work, but as you say, we should always start with the least stressful method and only consider these other more extreme techniques as a last resort.
There are usually many other methods that end up working better than pain based aversive techniques. I started with aversive techniques on my first dog, mostly collar corrections but with some alpha rolls thrown in just for good measure. This was all under the direction of a trainer with 30 years of experience and knew what he was doing. While my dog was with the trainer, he did fine. Unfortunately, I did not have 30 years of experience and did not execute things with the precision that the trainer was able to. The results were very bad. I ended up having to do a lot of counter-conditioning work to gain back my dog’s trust, calm him down, and lower his stress.
Finally, thank you for being calm and balanced in your comment. Often, we try to be patient with our dogs, and forget to be patient with our fellow human beings. 🙂
Zap-collars are way, way, way more humane than keeping your Sibe on a leash. I can call mine off an animal now without zapping him, and have many times. Only had to use it about half a dozen times in different circumstances. Once he realized I could reach out and touch him no matter how far away I was from him, everything changed. Like magic. I bike, he runs. No more problems with horses or cats either. He is off leash and in the woods minimum of three hours a day, usually more. I used a mountain scooter with him in harness until his training was complete at about 12 months, now I mostly bike with him off leash. We also hike, swim, walk through town, and go to the dog park. I take him out 3 hours a day minimum and he is always with me because I work from home. Huskies NEED TO RUN. If you can’t run them, you shouldn’t own one.
If you are happy with zap-collars then you are free to keep zapping.
I can only report on the facts and the scientific studies that have been conducted on the use of shock collars.
Ecollars are a interesting thing, and many people love or hate them. Even more scary is that many people think they are a quick fix for basic training, which they are definitely not. I believe this is why they get a bad reputation. They can AID in training when used on VERY low stimulations, to great results.
First, my personal thought is that anything less than 18 (dogtra models) is not giving any pain to the dog. I have used it on myself in many locations (arm, neck, etc) up to about 40, so I understand what stimulations I am sending. I have never needed above 35 which is quite unpleasant, but not necessarily painful (this was when chasing another animal).
I have a two dog model and use one on a husky who was well trained by other methods first, but would run off once and a while if unleashed. ALL our dogs are off leash, so leaving one on leash 100% of the time just will not work, we are in the country and regularly take walks in the woods. The Ecollar now allows him to be off leash whenever I’m outside.
The benefits of him running free with the other dogs is 1000 times better than the one or two corrections he gets per day. He is a happier dog now than before. There is NO other way to have a Siberian Husky off leash, and recall with complete confidence. That said, there is still the risk of him running away ignoring the collar, but that is another risk I am willing to take. If I lived in a large city perhaps my thoughts would be different.
Now, another of my other dogs, a border collie, lab, husky mix is quite good and I only got the two dog model because it was not much more money. I did aquaint her to the collar as well and now walk in public places such as parks, boardwalks, etc., without a leash on her. She is so well behaved that a slight vibration (no shock) and she is giving me her complete attention.
Now, as far as your disadvantages in the article. I purposely am adding stress in the dog’s life. Learning IS stressful, why do you think everyone hates college so much. This should not be mistaken as a disadvantage. Study after study says that people perform best when under stress, just not too much. Therefore when using the collar one must realize when a dog has had enough and give it a break for a few hours or days.
Also, I found that the collar has created a greater bond with my dogs. They do not understand that I am giving them the stimulation, and thus look to me for guidance, which of coarse I am trying to give in the first place. Its a win-win.
Hi Greg, Thanks for your very well thought out comment. It really made me think.
I have always wondered about the off-leash use of e-collars, but my Sibe has an extremely strong prey drive. I am pretty sure she would bolt after the deer or whatever even with the pain stimulus. Also there are some barbed wire fences in the hill trails that we walk in – so I am uncomfortable with off-leash walking.
I am not sure which my Sibe would prefer in the long-run. If only we could ask our dogs eh?
Re stress and college –
When I was in college I had a really good advisor. He was of the belief that stress makes you into a better person. He always told me that he was making things difficult now so that I could take the pressure of graduate school 🙂 I really respected him and am very glad I had him for an advisor in college.
When I went to grad school I had a truly awesome advisor. He knew how to get me motivated, and he knew how to inspire me. There was some stress (not from him, more from myself), but a lot less stress than before. I don’t know if I actually performed better, but I think I enjoyed life a lot more. This advisor I truly loved.
I guess in the end it depends on the dog’s temperament, and what we want most from and for our dogs.
Hard to read because there are so many bold things. Hard to concentrate. Probably a great hub but just too busy.
Thanks for the input. I will try to take off some of the bold.
Btw – it is fine to use your real ID – I have no problems taking constructive criticism 😉
Hello, it’s been a few days I’m reading all I can on shock collar, before making a decision on weather to use one on my 2 year old male husky.
For the story, I had him from the beginning, and as I have always been living in the swiss alps, I trained him to walk free from the start. He was great the first 8 months, then started to wander further away from me each time we went out. I am also an alpinist and have always taken him absoltely everywhere, skiing, trekking, etc. (in my back pack when he was little).
Problems started after 1 year, when he begun not to return for some 10-15 minutes at every walk. Then it got worse and today, he would just not listen and do whatever for half a day or so. I have been to my local, very serious, dog school every week for the last year, and he has made incredible progress. I can do a hole hour of training without the leash, in a field with 15 other dogs, and he listens to me very well most of the time. Then he has moments where is doesn’t listen at all anymore. In these moments, I loose him, he runs away.
I have tried food, toy, other dogs, to attract him back to me, but nothing does it. He comes back when he wants. We live in the middle of a forest and to be honest, I really want him to be able to run free when we go for walks, and I would be sad to have to leave him at home when I go back country skiing.
Last sunday he went after a sheep hord and one got scared and jumped off a cliff and died. It took me three hours to get him to stop running and barking after the sheeps. I was very shocked on how my dog is sometimes out of control, and the only solution I see is not to let him run free anymore. What a shame, he’s young and he knows exactly what I mean when I give him the “come back” order, he just decides not to listen.
I know huskies have a strong hunting instinct, and I would like advise on how to use a shock collar on him, as a very last resort method, to be able to let him run free when we go for mountain hikes.
I bought a innotek 1000 collar, it has bip and shock, and a antenna up tp 900 meters, but I haven’t used it yet.
Thank you if you can help me!
Hello Fzambaz,
It sounds like your Siberian is very well trained, and that you already know a lot about distance work, so I am not sure how much help I can be.
As you say, Siberians have a high prey drive and an independent nature, so it will be difficult to overcome that. The concern that I would have in using the shock collar is that you may have to use a fairly large shock to have an effect over the strong prey drive, and I am uncertain if short term use of it would be sufficient as a deterrent. And using it in the long-term is probably not a good solution.
What does the trainer in your class suggest?
Is the terrain too dangerous to have him pull you during skiing? If you engage him in a common task with you, he may be less likely to wander and get distracted. And I think he will still have a lot of fun.
Let us know how things go. I would be very interested in hearing about your results. Thanks!
Hi Shibashake,
Thanks for your reply.
About the skiing (which is only 4- 5 months of the year), it’s great to have him pulling me, he loves it, but only on the prepared slopes, which I don’t really go to when I can go up wild and untouched mountains. It’s way too dangerous for him in deeper snow, he needs to be able to run at his own rythm. But I do a bit of both an enjoy it.
He has a very thick fur as he’s always outside, and I’m concerned the collar won’t work on him. As an example, he doesn’t feel the shock from electric cows’ fences if he touches them with his back…
I will speak with the trainers and keep you posted on how things went.
I totally disagree with the use of shock collars on any animal. If someone feel the need to use one on their pets, let them have a go with one on and see if they still feel the same about the collar! I think it is cruel! Love and dedication is all you need for a pet, not an artificial babysitter to remind an animal if they are being naughty or nice.
Fantastic article, very informative and visually appealing. Beautiful dogs!
Hi AIDY, So happy to see you. 🙂
Sometimes I see a lot of let’s dominate that dog comments which after a while, leave me a bit discouraged. Thank you for the picker-upper comment. It is especially timely today and greatly appreciated 🙂
Good article and information—However, I’ll opt for the sound & vibration collar…
Thanks Nancy. I think it is good policy to err on the less is more side.
I usually do not believe in shock collars as a rule. However, I have had to use one on two of my dogs. Each time was to correct bad behaviors learned from previous owners that couldn’t be corrected using other methods.
In the first case, the dog wold bolt through the door and a merry chase would ensue until the dog felt like coming home. 1 day of “shock treatment” every time the door opened and he tried to bolt cured him permanently.
The second case was a let’s go over the fence and romp the neighborhood, but only if no one was in the yard. In this case, the dog was let into the yard and watched from a window – every time she jumped on the fence to climb it – the shock was administered. This took 2-3 days of diligent dog watching – but it did work.
Using a shock collar, in my opinion, is a LAST resort when other methods haven’t worked or the safety of the animals and people around the animal is at stake. We always used he lowest setting possilbe.
Hello Nanny J.O.A.T. , Thanks for sharing your experiences of the shock collar with us.
Yeah I think you are right in that it is an absolute LAST RESORT thing, only for the very short term, only under close supervision, and for very specific things (i.e. like those that you mentioned and the snake aversion).
I think the key is using it in a very clear case where the dog can easily associate a simple SINGLE action with the shock. As was shown in Schalke’s study, in those cases, there were no elevated levels of stress.
Unfortunately, most people are not as careful. And really those automatic shock systems are extremely bad news.
Shocking!
LOL QS – You are too much. And that’s a good looking profile picture 😉 Thanks for the zoom.
On second thoughts, I have an idea which could replace this CRUEL shock treatment method of YOURS!
It’s like this … attached to the upper part of the dog’s collar is a metal box which contains a set of springs and a lever attached to the main trigger spring which is in turn controlled by an electronic device.
The protruding end of the lever is set in line with the dog’s backbone, and positioned preferably at 45 degrees to the horizontal when the dog is standing on all fours. The protruding end has a wooden paddle attached to it, curving inwards such that it could be customized to fit into the thud-area.
When the electronic devise issues a command, the spring is released, enabling the lever to bring the paddle down hard on the thud-area. The intensity of the thud could be controlled by the timing devise. The shorter the timing, the greater the “thud.”
A built in programmable device could activate the mechanism whenever required.
Alternately a remote could be used.
Cool? Patent pending? Fifty-fifty?
PS: The paddle could be the shape of a human hand.
LOL QS – Actually I think I have seen that invention before on Looney Tunes 😀 But it was not all fleshed out like what you have just done so I think you still have a shot at the patent.
I would add an option where you can change the paddles to different shapes – maybe human hand, your annoying neighbors face, your boss’s shoe, etc. We could make a killing in these added accessories.
You are sick my friend – thanks for sharing your sickness with me 50/50 😀