He looks just like a fox!
You have probably seen this foxy little dog, walking his little walk around your neighborhood. Or perhaps you saw him at the dog park, strutting his stuff,… or maybe it was at the dog show.
These little foxes are striking. They act like they are on show all of the time, and they stand out wherever they go.
What are they?
Sounds like Sheba Inu, Shibu Inu, Shiba Enu … the one and only Shiba Inu.
The Shiba Inu – What’s That?!
The Shiba Inu is a Japanese dog breed. There are six original distinct breeds of dog from Japan, and the Shiba Inu is the smallest one.
The largest in the group is the Akita. There aren’t many red and white Akitas in the United States, but the few that I have seen, look just like larger versions of the red Shiba Inu. And not in the Schwarzenegger-DeVito sort of way.
Between the Akita Inu and the Shiba Inu, are the medium sized Japanese dog breeds, including the Shikoku, Kai, Ainu, and Kishu. These six Japanese dog breeds have very similar appearance and temperaments. They all belong to the Spitz dog family.
Shiba Inu – What Does It Mean?
The Kanji or Japanese character for ‘dog‘, can be pronounced as ‘Inu‘ or ‘Ken‘. Therefore, Shiba Inu simply means Shiba dog. Sometimes, you will also hear the Shiba dog being referred to as Shiba Ken.
The exact interpretation of ‘Shiba‘, is less clear. It could mean ‘red shrub‘, for the red bushes that grow in the region, where Shibas come from. Alternatively, it could also mean ‘small‘.
The Shiba Inu is certainly a cheeky little red shrub, so both interpretations work out well.
Shiba Inu – What Does It Truly Mean?
I know that discussions of red shrubs are truly riveting, but you probably want to move on to what it truly means to be Shiba, am I right?
Well, you know what they say about red-heads and their fiery temper.
The same is also true of the red-headed Shiba Inu. You may think that you can get around this thorny issue, by getting a Shiba of another color, such as the red-sesame, black and tan, or cream colored versions. However, the Shiba God is indeed one step ahead of you.
Shiba Inus of all colors, have the same fiery red personality.
That is why they are also known as –
- The ‘devil dog’,
- The ‘not for everyone dog’, and
- The ‘honey, why the hell did you get this thing?! dog’.
Indeed, the Shiba Inu is not recommended for first time dog owners.
However, figuring I was smarter than everyone else, or mainly because of lack of research, I decided to get a Shiba as my first dog anyway. It was not an easy first dog experience, but after over a year, Shiba Inu Sephy and I reached a somewhat peaceful state of cohabitation.
My little red shrub still has some thorns, but he is growing some beautiful flowers as well.
Mame Shiba
Standard sized male Shiba Inus tend to range between 20-25 pounds, for an average weight of around 23 pounds. Female Shiba Inus are slightly smaller, and have an average weight of 17 pounds. There are always outliers though.
My male Shiba is a big boy, and comes in at around 30 pounds. He is not an overweight dog, just big-boned.
Recently, some breeders in Japan and the United States have started breeding Mame Shibas, which are essentially smaller sized Shibas. ‘Mame‘ means ‘bean‘ in Japanese, so these are bean-sized Shibas.
Mame Shibas are not recognized by any of the kennel clubs in Japan, or in the United States. As a result, the breeding of Mame Shibas is not regulated, and many of the breeders who sell them, do not breed for health or temperament.
Since the Shiba Inu is already a difficult dog breed to begin with, we want to try and get one that has a balanced temperament. Therefore, it is best to get a Shiba from an accredited club breeder, who has to follow strict breeding guidelines.
Jomon Shiba
The Jomon period is the time in Japanese history from around 14,000 B.C. to 400 B.C. The Jomon inhabitants reared hunting dogs that were a big part of their culture.
Archaeological sites have uncovered well-preserved skeletons of the Jomon dogs, which show that they have prick ears and a sickle tail. Scientists believe these dogs to be the ancient ancestors of the Shiba Inu, and the other five original Japanese dog breeds.
Some breeders in Japan have founded the Shibaho association, to breed dogs with physical characteristics that conform to the Jomon dogs of old.
The Jomon Shiba is a more feral looking Shiba, with a narrower head, and larger teeth. True to their even more primitive roots, Jomon Shibas are more stubborn and less obedient, than their domesticated Shiba Inu brothers.
Given the already high level of stubbornness and willfulness in a regular Shiba, it may be best to stay away from these Jomon dogs.
Shiba Inu – Why Not?
Truthfully, there are many easier and friendlier dog breeds than the Shiba Inu.
The Shiba Inu is independent and aloof. If we want a lap dog who likes to cuddle with us, then the Shiba is not for us.
The Shiba Inu is feisty and active. If we want a calm dog that just lies at the end of our bed, and warms our feet, then the Shiba is not for us.
The Shiba Inu is a dog rebel. If we want an obedient dog that follows our every command, and only lives to please us, then the Shiba is not for us.
Why Do People Get Shiba Inus?
Yeah, they are a bit nuts. Maybe more than a bit nuts. However, once we get beneath that fiery red temper, we will find a rich and deep Shiba soul.
The Shiba Inu is a trickster. He likes to play tricks, and he likes breaking rules. We will never be bored if we live with a Shiba, because he will always be up to something. Sometimes, it is even something good.
The Shiba Inu is a clown. He likes being the center of attention, and he will do much to get to that coveted spot. What he does, will be original, funny, and very entertaining. In fact, Shibas remind me of stand-up comedians. They can easily make others laugh with their crazy hi-jinks, but they have a very sensitive and fragile soul.
The Shiba Inu is a charmer. He can charm birds from the trees, if he wants to. Most of the time, he may not want to, but when he does, look out! It is simply not possible to resist those deep dark eyes, his infectious grin, or roguish charm.
The Shiba Inu is one of a kind. He is not like a regular dog. In fact, many people describe the Shiba as a dog that is more like a cat.
If we want a dog that is a bit different, a dog that will challenge us and grow with us, a dog that will surprise us in both delightful and sometimes non-delightful ways, a trickster, a prankster, and a rogue, but sensitive, deep, and surprising – then the Shiba Inu is the dog for us.
He is like Han Solo and Indiana Jones, except with more fur and without the hat!
Getting a Shiba Inu
Should we get a Shiba Inu puppy?
That would depend on our temperament, lifestyle, and the amount of time we can devote to a new puppy. The Shiba Inu is a challenging dog breed, because he is extremely stubborn, dominant, and smart.
Shiba Inu training is a must, and it can be a very time consuming and frustrating process, especially in the beginning.
Patience and time are two key ingredients, that we will need in abundance.
Shibas are inside dogs, that need the company of their people. A Shiba puppy that is constantly left in his own company, will become stressed, unhappy, destructive, and aggressive.
If you still want a Shiba Inu after all this – then get a puppy from an accredited breeder, or from a Shiba Inu rescue.
I’m trying to convince my family that shiba’s are the way to go but the thing that holds them back is the shedding. Could you do a blog post about what you do about shedding since you have a husky and a shiba?
Hello Andrew,
Shibas do shed a fair amount but not as much as Siberians. They blow their coat about twice a year, but there is probably some shedding all year round.
When my Shiba is blowing his coat, I Furminate him almost every day. Other than that, his coat doesn’t really need much upkeep.
In my opinion, coat grooming is probably one of the least problematic areas with a Shiba. It is their independence, boldness, and crazy stubbornness that will drive you nuts. 😀
I just wanted to say that this is the best Shiba Inu website I have found! I have a 2 year old shiba and I always love reading new things and reading other people’s opinion on living with a Shiba. Your website is perfect and very helpful. Thanks so much!
Thanks for your kind words Elizabeth.
I had a lot of tough times about my Shiba, but he is also such a funny, endearing, and lovable little guy. It is difficult not to love a Shiba. 😀
Hey. Your site is very informative and the articles are very well written as well. I have gotten my first Shiba last Saturday, his name is Ace and he’s 2 months old/. Including Ace, my house now has 3 dogs. One Alaskan Malamute(Rei) and a Japanese Spitz(Husky). Both Rei and Husky are pretty chill dogs who aren’t really interested in play and prefer cuddles but Ace?
Hoo Boy… He’s a crazy little furry shark. Attempts to bite/chew everything and is almost always constantly on the go and up to mischief. I have read several of your articles prior to getting Ace and I thought “Alright! totally ready for this!” I was proven oh so very wrong. He prefers to chew on the furniture and other things rather than his toys most of the time. Also, he makes mistakes around the house and refuses to go on the wee wee pads set up for him in the toilet. He’s also pretty excited when we give him treats and handfeed him though he doesn’t bite the hands rather jumps and scratches us before being given the treat. As for the excitement, I have tried playing with him till he tires out but more often than so, he just loses interest in the toy and starts biting us or anything around him. I have tried saying ouch or yelping and even saying a firm no but he continues the biting and it is starting to leave marks as his teeth are very sharp. I cannot let him socialise with my other 2 dogs because they are pretty wary of him at the moment. Husky is pretty old and doesn’t really accept new dogs and Rei has a pretty low tolerance with dogs(he’s absolutely lovely with people though).
Do you have any advice on the biting, potty training and excitement? So sorry if this has already been addressed in the articles D:
Also, I cannot take him out for walks yet as he has not gotten his final puppy shot at the vets and we plan to start with his obedience training classes next month as we’ll be away for a week from the 31st.
Here’s a little picture of Ace too (:
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj115/Kitsuneoftherose/IMG_0681.jpg
LOL! I love that description!
Yeah, words, pictures, and videos cannot capture the true pain of the real Shiba experience. 😀
In terms of the biting and excitement what worked best with Shiba Sephy is to stay very calm. When he bites, I do the yelp thing but in a more calm, low-pitched voice. Like your little fur shark, Sephy got excited really easily when he was a puppy and high pitched sounds got him going.
The calm Oww usually startles him for a bit and he stops. At that point I put a toy near his mouth and redirect him to bite on something acceptable.
Sometimes he will redirect, but often he will just continue biting my hands. At that point I non-mark him, Ack-Ack, stand up, fold up my arms, stop playing with him., and ignore him.
But Shibas are usually pretty stubborn so they may continue to try and get attention by biting on clothes or feet. Sephy didn’t do that but he would go over to the bookcases and start chewing on books because he knows that this will get my attention.
At that point I just calmly say time-out and remove him to a boring time-out area (usually the laundry room). He stays in there for about 30 seconds, then I ask him for a simple command (e.g. Sit) before letting him out.
Here are a few articles on my early experiences with Sephy –
http://shibashake.com/dog/puppy-obedience-training
http://shibashake.com/dog/puppy-biting-how-to-stop-puppy-biting
As for potty training, Sephy really does not like going in the house. When he has to go, he will whine and go to the door. If possible, I would train puppy to go outside rather than on puppy pads.
Some puppies, like my Sibe puppies are less picky and they will go wherever. For them, I made sure to always watch them very closely when they are in the house. As soon as it looks like they are about to go potty, I take then outside. If I miss their potty cue and they start to go, I interrupt them and take them outside.
During puppyhood, I would bring Sephy out on-leash to a fixed place in the yard. Then I gave him the go potty command. I usually wait about 10 minutes for him to do his potty and I don’t let him play or roam about during that time. If he does his potty, I would praise him a lot and reward him really well with food and a fun game. In this way he learns that potty outside = lots of praise, rewards, and play.
Here is more on my potty training experiences.
Thanks for that awesome picture of Ace! Love that expression on his face and those ears! 😀
Hi thanks for your advice! Yeah, he is a handful haha. Regarding the time-out thing, I’ was wondering whether to let him out even if he starts screaming and crying during that duration or leave him till he calms down and then let him out? I’ve heard that releasing them while they yelp/scream/cry will teach him to continually use that to get out. He’s very smart and has learned to sit already too (: Ace was also very well behaved for his first time at the vet’s yesterday. He didn’t make a really big fuss about microchipping and nail trimming (much less than my malamute who needs about 4/5 people holding him down for temperature/shots)
We did find out yesterday that he has started attempting to hump and all (I was surprised as he is still very young and my other/previous dogs only did it after a year old. They eventually stopped when we refused to play and ignore them but Ace us very persistent ). Any advice on that? since you did mention that Sephy had the same problem too.
I also notice that you have quite a collection of toys that use/contain food. Does this affect Sephy/your other dogs’ meal times? or do you use it as a substitute for dog bowls?
Taking care of Ace is actually quite a different experience for me compared to training my other dogs as they are usually compliant and are pretty much manageable.
As for potty training, I’m now taking him up to the garden on my roof (we didn’t have enough space for a backyard and my parents were afraid that the other two dogs would soil it) every now and then for potty and some outdoor space. Is this advisable or should I just use the garden for potty? He won’t be going outside to parks and the sort till he gets his jab for parvo and distemper in 2 weeks time.
Thanks for your help (:
Sorry to add in, but he also does bite his leash. I was thinking of playing the “Find-It” game as suggested. Is the objective of the game ultimately to focus on the treat and not the leash and does it effectively stop leash biting?
Yeah they are very smart and as you say, will learn to use their patented Shiba Scream to get out if they can. I usually don’t let Sephy out until he has calmed down and is not whining. In the beginning, I waited for a very brief pause in his whining and then asked for a sit. As he got older, I slowly lengthened his necessary quiet time.
Wow that is really impressive! I wish Sephy was better at the vet. He is very sensitive to pain and is very fearful of vet visits.
I am not a big fan of humping so if Sephy does that to people he goes immediately to timeout. Nowadays, he doesn’t do that to people anymore but he will sometimes try to hump the other dogs during play. I stop that as well and if he keeps trying to hump, he goes to timeout and loses out on the play session.
Yeah, all the dogs have to work for their food. They get some of their food from doing commands, some from Find-It, and some from interactive toys. I think they enjoy working for their food and it helps to give them some mental exercise. It also makes them eat more slowly which is better for their digestion.
I supervise them very closely during meal-times to make sure there is no stealing.
As for potty training, it sounds like you are doing the right thing. I think it is easier to teach a puppy to go somewhere outside the house because then it is clear that in the house there is no potty whatsoever. However, dogs can also be trained to go on potty pads, in the same way that we train them to go outside. It may just take a bit more supervision and repetition because they may not know initially whether it is ok to potty in a particular room, or whether it is just in the corners of rooms, or whether it is only on the puppy pads.
Hugs to Ace!
For leash biting, it depends to some degree on why the dog is showing that behavior.
With many dogs, especially a puppy, it may simply be a play behavior.
In Sephy’s case though, he was mostly leash biting out of frustration. For example, he used to be very reactive to dogs and would sometimes go into a crazy leash biting dance when he did not get to go over to meet them. In these instances, it was a lot more effective to just quickly remove him from the area and take him home. If he continued to leash bite, he goes to timeout.
Here is a bit more on my experiences with leash biting –
http://shibashake.com/dog/train-your-dog-to-stop-biting-on-the-leash
I have my first Sheba and as a former dog trainer, I definitely feel like she is much more difficult than any other breed. But SO smart! She is six months old and rings the bell when she needs to go out (though she is starting to do the multi-times out and I’ve been using time out for that, I plan to modify her outside visits to limit her movement as suggested above, but she definitely knows “go potty” command lol). she watched my daughter’s Yorkie Pinm Einstein, and learned how to go “up” (sitting on her butt and raising front up for treat) on her own and now does it on command. I’m amazed by her intelligence every day and surprised how she now likes to lay not just near me but often touching me while she sleeps (one night she even came up and butted her forehead against mine and slept that way). I look forward to your page for insight in the future!
Hello Debra,
Your little Shiba girl sounds adorable! 😀
Yeah Shibas are very smart – and not just book smart, they are also extremely street smart. Sephy is very good at figuring out all of my buttons and he knows which one to push to get what he wants.
He can sometimes be a big pain in the ass, but he makes up for it by doing really funny and surprising things that make everyone laugh.
Congratulations on your Shiba puppy and big hugs!
Hi I have a Shiba Inu puppy her name is Akira she is going to be a year in november. She is unique in the sense that she still retains some of her black mask and has black eyebrows where the white should be. Anyway the problem I’m having with her is the biting and getting her to do her commands. She did not give me trouble and people even were astonished at her temprement so much that they said that she could not be a Shiba Inu. We took her to training as soon as she was a week old. I had a life threatening situation where I was in the hospital for 3 days and I was in the hospital so I left he with my sister and her kids. She is very close to me and is still close to me and will come lay down with me if I take a nap but ever since I got back it has been like something snapped in her. Whenever the doorbell rings now she gets anxious and howls and when anyone comes in the door she jumps on them and bites them in play. At first when we played with her before the incident she did not bite but squeezed but now she is biting. She does not listen to me sometimes when I call her and now she seems like she has made it her mission to get into anything she can get her mouth on. Akira’s favorite pastime is to tear paper and she seems to do it just to spite me. I read that she just wants attention and not to give it to her but none of the methods that I learned from her training class seems to work. When she bites I do the ack and turn away but instead of calming down and turning away she either goes around or bites on the back of the leg. It’s to the point now that she’s becoming destructive biting up paper and on chair legs. She will be a year in November will it be to late to change her behavior? I use her crate as her time-out zone and she knows the word Kennel which is her time-out zone and usually gets her to stop what she is doing. Is this a just wait it out thing or do I need to take furthur measures to get her to stop biting and jumping because the ack isn’t really working and I’m tired of her jumping on my friends and family members. She is almost never alone and when she is she is alone for 3 hours tuesday and thursday because those days I am in school. I try not to reward her bad behavior with attention but she finds a diffrent angle on how to bite or get hold of something she isn’t supposed to have.
Sorry I meant a week after we got her
Hello Elias,
Shiba Sephy is very similar in that he really likes his routine. He is also very sensitive to the energy of the people around him. So big changes in his environment cause a lot of stress for him.
As for the biting, timeouts work really well with Shiba Sephy because he really values his freedom. If Sephy does not respond to the yelp, I stand up, fold up my arms, and turn away from him. If he continues to bite, I calmly say timeout and take him directly to timeout.
In general, it is best not to use a crate as the timeout area because we want the dog to view the crate as something positive. This makes it easier to crate puppy when she is sleeping or home alone. I use the laundry room as my timeout area for Sephy and make sure there is nothing in there that he can chew, eat, or would be dangerous to him.
Here are some additional things I tried with Shiba Sephy in terms of biting –
http://shibashake.com/dog/puppy-biting-how-to-stop-puppy-biting
Other things that helped when Shiba Sephy was a puppy –
http://shibashake.com/dog/puppy-obedience-training
Another thing I did with Sephy when he was young was take him to the SPCA to play with other friendly dogs there (under supervision). He really needed a fair amount of off-leash time and I didn’t have a backyard then, so the SPCA play sessions really helped a lot.
A tired Shiba is a good Shiba. 😀
Hugs to Akira. Let us know how it goes.
I totally stumbled upon your site, but loved reading some of your articles. I have a 4 yr old male Shiba named Suntori. He’s his own man. And just like your article, he comes around when he wants something, but is usually lounging around on his bed, or snout out under the sofa.
I have always wanted a German Shepherd,Lab, Husky, Golden Retriever, or Samoyed a dog a bit more loving and affectionate, just to give things a bit of a balance. I am in the process of researching what is the best fit for us but my main concern is Suntori. He doesn’t really care to socialize with other dogs and just like you said somewhere, as far as he’s concerned, he’s royalty.
I really want another dog and am really interested to see how you invited your new dog into your home and how your Shiba responded. Any words on which of the breeds I mentioned would be best? I do like a spitz, but that is not my sole deal maker/breaker.
Thanks and I look forward to reading more of your articles.
My Shiba Inu Sephy does not trust very easily. He was pretty stand-offish when we brought puppy Lara home. He did not want puppy messing with him, sniffing his butt, and he did not play with puppy. He did sniff her, examine her, and then he kept his distance.
During the first week I made sure to supervise them very closely so that puppy does not bother Sephy and so that they did not have any negative experiences together.
I also made sure that they had many positive experiences. I had many short training sessions with puppy and during this time, Sephy would come over to beg for food. I made sure to praise and reward both dogs really well when they were calm and peaceful together. After a bit, Sephy would always come over whenever I started training sessions with puppy.
It is also very important to be fair and consistent with all the dogs. Puppy has to follow the same rules as the other dogs. In fact, puppy has more rules.
It took about 1 week before Sephy warmed up to puppy Lara. Once he included Lara into his circle of trust though, he became very tolerant of her and lets her sniff, jump over him, step on him, etc. Still, I supervise them so that Lara doesn’t bother Sephy too much and overly stress his patience. 😀
Here are more of my experiences with getting a second dog.
NOTE: Sorry for repost. I just noticed that my previous message was posted as a reply to my own comment so I didn’t know if it would be noticed by anyone down there.
Original Message:
Hi everyone!
We just got our new Shiba puppy this Sunday! Here are some pictures of her: http://front–row.tumblr.com/post/8029982727
Her name is Kumiko (Kumi for short)and so far she has brought the expected mix of terror and delight. Certainly a full blown Shiba scream is something that needs to be experienced to be appreciated.
This is our first day leaving Kumi at home while we both work. We’ve kept her confined to the hallway by closing all the doors, but I’m still paranoid that she’ll have found a way to destroy everything or summon the police by screaming.
We have a crate and a decently sized exercise pen for her for longer term confinement. However she seems to absolutely hate these two things and will start screaming and crying within two minutes of being placed in one of them. Obviously this is not ideal. We’d like to be able to leave our Kumi unattended for a few hours without here sounding the alarm constantly.
Does anyone have any tips about how to get her acclimated to being confined to her crate or pen?
Also, often she whines to be taken outside to do her business, but when I get her out there she just meanders about eating grass and sometimes just sitting in the grass without doing anything. Then when I take her back inside she’ll start whining again and if you ignore it she’ll just go poop in the corner somewhere. It’s a bit frustrating to take her out 3 times in an hour only to have her poop in the house!
Thanks for any help anyone can provide!
Congratulations on your new Shiba puppy! Thanks for sharing all your great pictures – Kumi looks absolutely adorable!
In terms of crating, what seems to have worked pretty well for my Sibe puppy is to go very slowly. Currently, she is tethered with a very short lead to the crate at night. She will sometimes go in there to sleep but the door is open so she can come out for a short distance if she wants to. Initially we put her on a longer tether and we have slowly shortened it as she slowly gets used to her routine.
Another possibility, is to train puppy to go in there for very short periods of time initially and then slowly lengthen the time. For example, the first few days, give the crate command, throw a treat in, puppy goes in, Good!, treat, and let puppy out again. Don’t even close the door. Then once puppy is comfortable doing that, close the door and then open it back right away, and so on.
In terms of the potty, what I did with Sephy (when he was a puppy) is always bring him out on lead. I take him to his potty spot and say “go potty”. Then I wait for a few minutes. In that time I do not let him go exploring etc. – which is where the lead comes in very handy. If he does go potty, then I praise him a lot, reward him really well, and then he gets to go off-leash and explore in the backyard. We also play some fun games. If he does not go potty, then we come back in.
Usually, I have a black-out period after we come in, where I don’t take him out even if he whines. But I do watch him for potty signals. If I see him heading to the corner (that is usually his tell that he is about to go potty) then I take him out and repeat the process above.
In this way, he does not get rewarded for whining because he doesn’t get to go exploring when we first go outside. However, if he actually does his potty, then he gets rewarded really well.
Also try posting your questions on the Shiba Inu Forum –
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/
There are many Shiba veterans there with a lot of good information. Let us know how it goes!
My husband and I adopted a Shibu about 4 months ago…raised in a kennel…7 yrs old, we had her spayed and now she is very nervous and jumpy. We are trying the kindness/reward training. Scolding/yelling/jerking leash only made situation much worse…loves goose meat treats…long walks with her catching small birds when possible, are her favorite. Does not know how to play…yet…We are hoping she can be off lease in a few months and run the 320 acres we have and come back to kennel up at night— using a leash for the rest of her life is not our vision of fun!
Does anyone notice their Shiba is neurotic about their tails or is it just my dog? If a fly lands on her back or tail she’ll literally go into a tail spin seeing if it’s still there minutes later. Sometimes she sprints to her bed or couch and lays down like she’s been punished.
Sephy used to be very neurotic about his tail and actually about his entire posterior region. We started handling him a lot in the back areas and tying that to rewards. That has helped him get more comfortable with unexpected touches or insects on his tail.
He is still pretty neurotic about flies though. If one gets in the house he will not rest until the fly is dead. 😀
Help! This is my first dog and I finally convinced my parents to get one. I picked a shiba bcuz it was so CA-YOOT! Then yea- trouble began and u guys capture the personality in the articles. can u teach me how to make my shiba lose his ‘i want this so too bad i’m gonna do it and ya cant stop me’ behavior.
thx so much if u can help!
p.s- don’t u luv it when ur shiba rolls over and lets u scratch its tummy and licks u(well until u realize they were just covering up the bad thing they did)