Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer, on the National Geographic Channel, has become very well known for dealing with difficult, aggressive dogs.
Victoria Stilwell is a popular dog trainer in the U.K., with her own t.v. series called It’s Me Or The Dog on Animal Planet.
- Do you prefer watching Victoria Stilwell or Cesar Millan?
- If you met Cujo in a dark alley, would you rather have Victoria Stilwell or Cesar Millan with you?
- Do you think Victoria Stilwell or Cesar Millan would be better at training your own dog(s)?
These are the important questions we consider in Cesar Millan vs. Victoria Stilwell!.
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I’m a dog walker and occasionally board some of “my” dogs in my home (with my 3 cats). I don’t have any dogs of my own because my husband is not a dog guy. Although he’s great with them he feels they’re too much work. That’s how I started walking other people’s dogs. I’ve walked dogs of all sizes from a tiny Maltese to a giant Irish Wolf Hound & a Rottweiler that outweighs me by a few pounds (he’s not overweight, I’m just small). I’ve walked dogs ranging from puppies to senior citizens. Still do.
I have read all the posted comments with great interest.
I grew up with dogs. My father always taught me not to be afraid of them & I never have been. He also taught me to respect them. When I was 3 years old we went to a bungalow colony during the summer. There were several off-leash Dobermans that every one was afraid of. Until the day they saw tiny, little me running with them, ordering them around & telling them what to do. (With my dad there, of course).
I watch both The Dog Whisperer & It’s Me or the Dog. I use a combination of techniques gleaned from both shows. It depends on each individual dog what specific method I use at any given time. I’m not afraid to try something different.
Just a couple of examples:
One of my dogs (a relative newcomer to the city) has some major obsessions including squirrels. He pulls on the leash and makes this hideous whining, yipping, hysterical sound trying to get at a squirrel. The usual methods were not working (leash tug & release, food, etc.). He was out of his mind focused on the squirrel. So I tried something I’d never done before. I made an even louder, higher pitched & more annoying sound myself. This caused him to stop pulling on the leash, turn around & look at me. Once I’d stopped, he tried to continue with his obsession a couple of more times. Each time I repeated my performance. After the third time when he turned around, he sat down and looked at me. He was calm and then we continued our walk. Now when a squirrel incident starts I just make a loud, brief sound and change direction and then change direction again back to the way we were going in the first place. He follows with no problem. He also frequently ignores squirrels completely now. And the change didn’t take long at all.
Recently I had a dog (one of my occasional charges) for a very early morning walk. We went to Central Park during off leash time. Many owners pay little or no attention to what their dogs are doing. A group of dogs was getting over-excited in their play (which can lead to problems) so I called my charge over. He came as did a group of the over excited dogs. While my charge sat waiting patiently looking at me, the other dogs were barking at each other, trying to jump on me, growling, etc. I just let out with an “enough”. They all looked at me. I indicated that they should give me some space. They did. I told & signaled them to sit & be calm. They all did. By the way, I didn’t know these dogs nor they me. Then I asked the owners if it was all right if I gave their dogs a treat. They said yes. So I did since they were all waiting patiently. Then I leashed my charge & we calmly walked away.
I’ve also helped dogs that used to bark & growl at one other become best buds by taking them on a walk together. With me as their leader. Now they have play dates.
I am always the leader. I walk the dogs not the other way around. I’m the first to enter or exit – with them next to me or behind me. They also walk next to or behind me. We don’t go anywhere until they’re calm. I use patience and I am calm & assertive (this does NOT mean aggressive). I don’t panic, freak out or get angry when some kind of situation arises. And all of the dogs love me. As I do them. When we’ve met when they’re being walked by their owners they can’t wait to greet me. I get lots of licks and wagging tails.
I give treats only when the dog is calm and paying attention to me. (I almost always have treats with me). I give lots of affection & praise besides the treats. I don’t bully my animals nor do I coddle them. I expect them to give me respect and they do. And I give them respect. They also trust me. When I give a correction it’s all in the timing. I don’t hit dogs. But I do give them discipline. I give them lots of love & affection too. I talk to them and even sing to them!
All the dogs that live in my building love me. Even the ones I’ve never given a treat (allergies). I don’t ignore (simply turn away from) a dog trying to jump on me. I address it. I tell them to get down. They have to get down and be calm before I’ll give them attention & pet them & give belly rubs.
A lot of it goes back to the way I was reared. I was never hit or even really punished by my parents. There were rules. The reasons for rules were explained to me. They treated me with respect and love. They didn’t yell at me. I loved & respected them in return and I didn’t want to disappoint them. So I behaved.
Since dogs aren’t human you can’t really explain the rules to them but that doesn’t mean they don’t need rules.
As I said before, I use a combination of both Milan’s & Stilwell’s methods. But I do believe that the human must be the one in charge.
By the way, Cesar does not say to use a tight leash. He always says to use a relaxed leash!
I don’t care for Victoria Stilwell. I’m not talking about her methods.
It is great that you achieve leadership through food and the control of resources. As you say, no physical aversive techniques such as shock collars and alpha rolls are needed.
Think of feeding the bears for a moment.
Problems happen when wild animals and people interact.
The bears see the people as a food source and then they lose their fear of people. If a bear attacks a person then it has to be destroyed.
If it was a female that was destroyed and she had cubs then they will be trapped and be placed in a zoo for the rest of their lives.
Why is that?
It’s because the mother taught them a life lesson that people are prey and they don’t want the pattern to continue when the cubs become adults.
The behavior link gets broken and it isn’t passed down to the next generation of bears.
To avoid this type of danger with bears what do we do?
We keep a distance from bears and we don’t feed them.
It is the same way with stray dogs.
Avoid the dogs and keep a distance from them.
Food attracts hungry dogs.
Avoid bringing any food with you on a dog walk because they can smell it from a long distance away from you.
Food in a backpack would only attract a hungry dog and encourage it to come after you for a free meal.
Is that the behavior you want to reward?
Stray dogs will have you all figured out in just a few seconds.
If a stray dog has already approached you and your dog then it has no fear of you, your dog, your stick or riding crop.
The trick is keep a barrier distance between you and the stray dogs.
When you see a stray dog on the street it is probably going to be too busy smelling interesting things on the ground to notice you from a distance.
Take that moment to cross to the other side of the street or take a different path to avoid the stray dog.
A back pack would have something thick in it like a blanket in order to give the dog something to bite on in case it jumps up on you.
The best tactic is avoidance.
The best strategy is to know your neighborhood and where all the dangers are before you walk a dog.
Walk around the streets at 10 pm on summer night when people have their windows open in order to get some fresh air.
Blow a silent dog whistle and jingle some car keys as you walk by each house. The clinking sound of the keys makes a similar sound as the dog tags on a dog collar.
All the dogs in the neighborhood will sound off barking because they will think a dog is outside their house.
You can tell where most of the big bad dogs are by the sound of their bark and then you know which houses to avoid when walking your dog.
The best tool for protection is your brain.
Thanks for the great info Kevin. I will probably write an article about this after I do a bit more research.
Pit-bulls scare me because I have seen the severe damage they can inflict in a dog fight.
I had to deliver mail to houses on the wrong side of the tracks that used pit-bulls, dobermans, and rottweilers for property protection.
When I walked up to a new house and heard a dog bark I looked for any screen door damage. If the door was undamaged then I didn’t worry. If the screen door was destroyed then I worried because I knew the dog was aggressive in nature.
When a strange dog growls at you and it is eye-balling you then it is telling you that it is dominant.
The street gangs used a slang term called “Mad Dogging” and it was often used in the form of a question, i.e. “Are you Mad Dogging me?” It was a term used as a precursor to a challenge or a fight.
Before pit-bulls fight each other they don’t give each other direct eye contact. They use their peripheral vision to judge the distance between them and the other dog. Once the pit-bulls lock eye-balls then they go mad and you better get out of their way.
When gang members stare directly at each other then it is often perceived as signal to a challenge or a fight.
My own experiences tell me if a pit-bull is going to attack you then it probably isn’t going to bother posturing and growling at you.
It will probably run out of its yard and leap onto you when you are walking on the street without much of a warning.
They have no fear.
You can be seven feet tall and weigh 400 pounds and they will still run out onto the street attack you if you trigger them into an attack mode.
I have seen them do it.
However, you must realize that most of these pit-bulls were all trained to be aggressive by their owners.
Pit-bulls can often be sweet around people and yet sometimes be aggressive towards other dogs.
You have to know the nature of the dog you are dealing with before you can handle it properly.
Last week I took my daughter into a large pack of dogs. One of the dogs was a rescued pit-bull that was previously used as a bait dog. It was a sweet pit-bull that was all chewed up from all the fights it was in and it wouldn’t hurt a fly. It’s owner is a soldier stationed in Afghanistan and its boarding and care was being provided for free.
I can easily relate to Caesar more than Victoria. Because I’m intuitive and in tune with the dogs nature. I know how to instantly build a bridge between their nature and human nature. I can look into their eyes, see their souls and sense the level of their energy.
I work with it, not against it.
Hello Again:
I would suggest having a nap sack on your back that you can take off fast and use it as an effective shield between you and an aggressive dog. Then slowly back away from the dog as you continue to face it.
The dog will bite that back pack and rip it apart, but it’s better that than your arm or your leg.
That worked for me when an aggressive German Shepard lunged for my face.
As far as meeting stray dogs on the street.
Most aggressive dogs won’t be half as interested in biting you as they will be in biting the dog that you are walking.
I don’t get in between dogs when they fight.
Usually males don’t fight females.
It is more common to see females fight females and males fighting males.
I grew up as a kid around hundreds of stray dogs roaming the streets.
I have never met any dog as a kid that didn’t know what a big rock was when I bent down to pick one up and threatened to hit it in the head.
Watch a wild animal and you will see it stalk the weak and the young.
A lion can kill an adult zebra, but if it gets kicked in the face it may get a broken jaw. Then it won’t be able to eat the zebra that it killed and then it will perish.
Dogs are just as smart as lions when it comes to survival instincts.
They know a rock in their face is like a lion getting kicked in the face by an adult zebra.
They usually want to avoid those types of injuries at all costs and they will normally back down.
However, if a stray dog has rabies and is foaming at the mouth then the rock trick won’t usually work. I have been there and done that a few times in my life. The cops had to arrive on the scene and shoot those dogs with their revolvers.
Please understand that the things I’m sharing with you are not to be used in any form of dog training.
They are street wise survival tactics to use when a stray dog charges you with the intent of biting you.
The best tactic to use is avoidance. The best tool to use is your brain.
Here is a time when I didn’t use my brain.
I once did an alpha role on a dominant stray German Shepard that I just met on the street.
I was a crazy stupid teenager and I wanted to keep the dog as a pet.
That was the first and last time I ever tried a stupid stunt like that.
I grabbed it by the throat and threw it on its back and then jumped on it for the ride of my life.
It wanted to kill me. It felt like a life and death struggle until it finally gave up the fight and submitted to my dominance.
That happened over thirty something years ago, but I still shake when I think of all the raw energy that it took out of me in that do or die struggle.
I learned that dogs are very powerful creatures and its better to respect them rather than challenge them to a fight.
I used every ounce of strength in my body in that struggle.
My energy was completely spent and I was running on pure adrenaline.
It taught me to use my brain instead of trying to use my strength to handle dogs.
I really like the knapsack idea. Do you think it will help to also hide some food in a pocket somewhere (beforehand) so that the dog will be drawn to it and give me time to retreat?
Other suggestions I have gotten from people include using a riding crop on the dog’s muzzle or using a walking stick as a barrier. What do you think of these possibilities?
I really enjoyed your alpha roll story. I think you bring up some very good points -
It is sad because when I go walking in the park I see people doing alpha rolls on their dogs here, there, everywhere.
As you say, many of these techniques are for extreme circumstances and not for regular day to day dog training mistakes. Unfortunately, that is not always clearly conveyed through a television program, and the technique gets applied inappropriately. In the end, it is the dogs that suffer most.
Hello again:
If a dog has been trained to attack then it won’t often bother barking at you or give you a warning.
It will look you in the eye and then do whatever it can to try and attack its target. If it is attacking a dog then it will often go for the jugular veins in the neck and try to kill the other dog even if you are walking it on a leash.
I had this happen to me once when a huge 120 to 150 pound Rottweiler / Mix attacked a 80 pound golden retriever that I was walking on the street.
The dog was locked inside a van on the street and it slammed the door open with the weight of its massive body.
It attacked within seconds of escaping from the van.
I gave it a strong loud command and the dog released my dogs neck.
Then the owner came out of his house. He tried to grab the dog by the neck, but the dog was much bigger and stronger than its owner.
It seemed to fear me more than the owner.
The dog was calm as it attacked the dog I was walking.
It knew exactly what it was trained to do.
The dog I was walking had very deep puncture wounds and it was very lucky to survive the attack.
Most people will run in the opposite direction when they hear gun fire, but soldiers are trained to move towards the sound of gun fire and engage their enemy.
It is the same way with military dogs.
Military trained dogs are not pets, they are used as tools.
They will follow the orders of the their handlers to give up their lives when instructed to do so. I unfortunately had to witness and participate in this activity more times than I care to remember as I assisted in putting them down due to their physical injuries.
Pepper spray is a joke to some dogs.
They lick it up like it is salsa on a taco.
It works on some dogs, but not all dogs. They will often run circles around you and then you will end up spraying yourself in the face on a windy day when you spray it into the wind.
I once saw a supervisor instructing letter carriers inside a building on how to properly use pepper spray in front of a big oscillating fan. He pepper sprayed all six letter carriers when the fan came around and blew it all their faces.
It was a Kodak moment. Pepper spray works really good on letter carriers, but as far as dogs go, it is at best 50 /50 from my own experiences.
The best protection is to place something between you and the dog.
It will often try to grab that before it tries to grab you.
Then you try to slowly move back and away out of its territory.
Have you ever seen a lion tamer in a cage with a chair poking at the lion?
The chair has four legs on it and it is hard for the lion to focus on all four things at the same time and still think about something else silly…
like eating you alive.
Distraction does seem to work in the same way on some dogs. That is unless the dog has been trained to ignore loud sounds like air horns.
You have to know the breed you are dealing with and the environment that they are living in to properly interact with and control the dogs.
Dogs live in the moment and they can instantly sense any change in your energy.
I took my 13 year old 80 lb daughter into a strange pack of 30 to 35 dogs last week. They didn’t know us.
The dogs were as small as a couple of Chihuahua’s and as large as two Irish Wolf hounds.
There were pit-bulls and a mix of almost everything else that you can think of in the pack. I taught her how to center her energy and how to deal effectively with the alpha dogs that rushed up and challenged us as we entered the pack.
Her spirit and energy was strong even though her body was small and petite. Just like the Chihuahua’s she was a dominant force of energy and the big dogs responded to her by submitting to her.
The alpha Malamutes were tough for her to handle at first, but even they settled down after a few hours and they accepted her into the pack as a leader.
She still has much to learn about dogs in a large pack setting, but now she knows deep within her spirit that she has the courage to face danger and deal with it head on in a calm, firm and effective manner.
I taught her how to jump into a large dog pack without being eaten alive.
That is something she will remember for the rest of her life.
She even has the photos and a video of her controlling the dog pack in order to prove it to her friends just in case they don’t believe her.
You have to know how to handle yourself before can handle any strange dogs.
I hope the above information was of some help.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional dog trainer.
I simply found out what works the hard way with dogs when I did some thing stupid, which was more often than I care to remember.
Some people learn by trial and error.
I learned error by error.
I have lived around all types of dogs for over 50 years of my life and I got the scars to prove it.
Good luck with your dogs.
I like Victoria and Caesar, but for different reasons.
They are both very good entertainers, but they have very different public personas.
I like how annoyed, angry and insulted Victoria lets herself get by listening to different opinions that other people have about the right way of dog training. There is no right, only different.
Perhaps Victoria needs some brain training in order to learn that her EGO is not her amigo.
Whenever Victoria notices something that annoys her, frustrates her, or makes her angry or even makes her excited about another person, she should ask herself where she does she do it in her own life.
Although she may not like what she sees, or hears from other people. The other people are probably only a mirror and reflecting back the same behavior that she was guilty of indulging in sometime in her past.
Victoria is a strong advocate about positive reinforcement dog training techniques and that is a charismatic trait that makes her a popular dog training expert.
However, her energy often spikes and she has a difficult time being centered. She can be very emotional, but that just maybe a hormonal thing, so I’m not going to hold that against her. I just wouldn’t want her around an unstable big angry dog when I’m in the same room.
Just mention the word Caesar and her emotional hot button pushes her into the instant anger zone.
Then Victoria acts all hot and bothered, but I like that because emotional conflict is very entertaining to watch on television.
I find Victoria sexy and attractive when she is strutting around in her sexy dominatrix black leather boots and tight little outfits.
She acts like the dominating dominator anytime her belief system gets challenged. Victoria is really good at arguing her point and stating her case even though her argument is often basically pointless.
However, it sure is entertaining to watch and that adds to her popularity.
We live in such a Homogeneous Society and it’s hard to separate yourself from the rest of the pack of all the sameness.
Polarized people are people that buy things, stuff and ideas.
That is why Caesar and Victoria are successful in the marketplace.
They are very clever at marketing / positioning and at branding.
One trains people and the other trains dogs.
If they weren’t polar opposites in their approach to dealing with dogs then this discussion would not be taking place on this board.
Caesar has a charismatic personality and teeth so white they glow.
He has a strong masculine energy and he is not afraid to receive a dog bite in the line of duty.
Caesar has to be careful when dealing with dangerous dogs because nature is predictably unpredictable.
Nature demands attentiveness. If he lets his attention drift for just a moment then he risks getting a dog bite. Caesar is mentally engaged and emotionally detached when dealing with dangerous dogs.
I speak from some painful real world experiences. I worked around military dogs when I was in the service and I was also a mailman.
I have been attacked and bitten by big and small dogs. I know what it is like to have a dog sink its teeth deep into my bone and try to rip my arm off my body.
I would love to see how fast Victoria would change her mind about her way of dealing with dogs if that was her arm instead of mine.
Do you think she would be kicking that dog in the nuts or just telling it to GET OFF?
Pain is how Mother Nature grabs our attention and I got a few wake up calls in my life on how to effectively handle dogs.
Life isn’t about “either” / “or”.
Life is a paradox. It’s about “and” / “both.”
Males can’t exist without females. Pain can’t exist without pleasure. They exist on opposites sides of the same coin.
Nature demands balance in all things and so it is with dog behavior / people training. Pain and pleasure are the great motivators in life.
It doesn’t matter whether you choose to accept it or not.
Pain and pleasure are both necessary when we are dealing with behavioral problems in life.
Wisdom and Nature are never in conflict with each other even if our opinions do conflict over which person offers the best way of dealing with unwanted dog behavior.
Hello Kevin,
Thanks for your great and very thoughtful comment.
I agree with you that in situations where I am facing an aggressive free roaming dog in the neighborhood I would definitely prefer to have Cesar on my side. I have been charged several times by somewhat aggressive dogs in the neighborhood although thankfully never bitten so they probably were not truly aggressive. Still, when you have a pit bull snarling at you, it is difficult not to be afraid.
I am now carrying pepper spray and am going to get an air horn to see if any of those things will help. Do you have any suggestions? It seems like you have some good experience in this area.
For my own dogs though, I try to use as much positive reinforcement as possible. As you observe, it is not possible to protect our dogs from all pain. Sometimes they fall, pounce into bushes and hurt themselves, sprain their legs while running around at top speed, and who knows what else they do to get their various bumps and bruises. Vet visits are also very stressful and painful – but necessary.
There is already a lot of external pain and stresses, it is not necessary for us to add more into the mix.
Sorry, I forgot to add the name. The Anonymous above would be me.
sjsj –
First off, Cesar never claims to be a dog trainer of any kind, nor should he be called a dog trainer.
I think Victoria’s methods work just fine, and if someone wants to use those methods on thier dog, go ahead! I just don’t like her as a person, she’s just too much of a know-it-all and actually gets mad at the dogs and owners for thier mistakes. This neither helps the dog or the owner in any way.
As for the part about Cesar; Cesar does prevent the dog from attacking. He sees the signs (staring another dog down, a twitch of the lips, or even the movement of an ear toward another dog) much more often and earlier than Stilwell does. Stilwell uses treats to reinforce a behavior, but she most often doesn’t correct the bad behavior. (Turning your back on a dog or pulling the dog away isn’t a correction, just redirection)
I once saw an episode of hers with two dogs, one of them was aggressive toward the other. She used treats to totally distract them from each other while they inched them closer and closer. By the end of the episode, the dogs had yet to even interact positively. The only difference was that they were closer and the one wasn’t trying to kill the other. There was never a butt sniff or anything.
“tortures it by hitting or doing that retarded alpha roll or whatever it is” He has never hit a dog, tortured it, or anything of that nature. Just because he uses physical corrections doesn’t automatically mean that he’s physically hurting the dog. I can touch you without hurting you, can’t I? Dogs bite each other and put each other to the ground to get a point across, because unlike humans, they don’t have the capacity to teach each other with treats and voice commands.
As for them being threatening gestures, if you’re doing it while you’re mad or scared or anything but calm and assertive, yes it is going to end up badly for the dog and for the human. But if you’re calm and assertive, to dog will not be scared or intimidated by you, and it won’t redirect the aggression onto you.
personally, i think victoria stilwell is a better dog trainer cause she is positive. for example when she treats aggressive dogs she gives them confidince. she accually tries 2 prevent the dog from reacting and she wants the dog 2 see that other dogs mean good things. that is geineous. (however u spell that) ceaser sux. he just waits till the dog reacts and he tortures it by hitting or doing that retarded alpha roll or whatever it is. victoria says those r threatining gestures and the dog is going 2 redirect that aggresion onto u. VICTORIA RULES!!!!!!!!!!
Exactly. That is the big difference between Cesar’s Way and Positive Reinforcement / more science based people. Cesar’s way depends almost entirely on the energy of the dog. He wouldn’t be able to control 40+ dogs at the same time if he didn’t.
If you take a dog out of it’s environment and do conditioning experiments on it, you’re never going to see pack structure, simple as that. It’s just another way people isolate themselves.
I think they did something about this on The Mythbusters. One trained a dog with only positive reinforcement, the other using pack theory and positive reinforcement. I think the one using pack theory was more obedient than the other dog. It was an interesting experiment, “old dog, new tricks” is what it was called. Not sure where the pack theory part came into play, though.
Hi Alex,
Sorry for the delay in reply – I was trying to finish writing some articles on HubPages.
“They take the world that they see, that they observe, not what they feel.”
That is very interesting. I had not thought of it in those terms before. I suppose in the conditioning experiments, the animals may not even interact with people because the scientists want to create as few environmental variables as possible.
However, I think if we expand our consideration into a wider area there are a variety of scientific studies that deal with animals, how they detect what other animals are feeling around them, their reactions to fear, etc, etc.
You bring up an extremely good point though – we should consider more than just conditioning when it comes to dogs. Also the nature of science is that it tries to isolate single conditions that it can then verify or not. It becomes a lot more difficult to quantify complex systems with a large number of variables that are difficult to isolate.
Hmmm, very good food for thought.
The reason his fear of strangers started was because some idiot practically jumped on him, “hugged” him, and was being really excited and grosely invaded his space. He had enough after a couple of seconds and snapped at her. That’s how he learned that barking/growling at them gets them to go away. It all happened so fast I didn’t have time to interveen before he did.
Sometimes noTnoTnoEC can have dominance implications, but that wasn’t what I was getting at. It’s the way dogs meet each other, and so meeting them in the opposite way confuses them; when my dog meets another dog I always observe to see if they’re giving eye contact, because sometimes it can be hard to tell where they’re looking. I wanted to see if Cesar was right about them not giving each other eye contact, and as far as I can tell they don’t, at least not right off the bat. Eye contact can be seen as threatening to a dog, especially an insecure one like mine.
Nature and science do go together very well, but in the dog world strict positive reinforcement people (not you) see only the science. They take the world that they see, that they observe, not what they feel. They don’t take into consideration the energy, the actual being of the dog, just cause and effect that they see infront of them. It’s not nature/spirituality and science pinned up against each other, it’s the people that use it in dog training. Some of them do notice the interaction between owner and dog, how a dog will be calmer when it’s owner is calm, but most only think that this is because the dog can tell by looking at the owner the way a human would tell if someone was calm, not because they can sense the energy.
Hi Alex,
“I find that when I’m using treats with my dog he’ll get into “bad” state.. Like, he’ll mouth my hands, step on me, invade my space. I’m not sure why.”
I think most dogs will do that initially. This is where timing comes in – ignore them when they are doing that and only reward them when they are calm. Very quickly they will learn that treats means sitting and waiting calmly. I suppose that is what Cesar does sometimes as well.
“It makes me mad when people don’t respect my wishes of them to follow noTnoTnoEC”
I totally agree with you on this. I usually avoid people who project overly excited, or fearful energy. One time this lady just stepped up into my dog’s space and straight away tried to pick him up – without asking us or anything. Some people …
And yes you are right that noTnoTnoEC can have dominance implications. I will have to add this to the article – Thanks! However, sometimes it is just the attention that gets a dog all excited – it is not always about dominance
Thanks for sharing your reasons with me. Must have been a lot of fun growing up surrounded by dogs like that
Going back to a point you made about Cesar’s Earth spirituality vs. science – I don’t think that science and nature are incompatible. Science is actually the study of nature so both go hand in hand.
Conditioning techniques, and indeed behavioral psychology as a whole gets most of their theories from observing and studying animal behavior.
Hi Steve, Thanks for joining our little party here
“What Ceasar does not personally believe in is the repeated reward practice where all you do is focus on giving praise but not focusing on the negative behavior that led to the trouble in the first place.”
Both reward training and aversive training can deal with *both* desirable and undesirable behaviors. With reward techniques you give rewards to enforce a behavior and take away rewards to stop bad behaviors. With aversive techniques you apply an aversive stimulus to stop bad behaviors, and take away the aversive stimulus to enforce good behaviors.
Problems arise when you throw timing into the mix. Timing has nothing to do with which specific technique you use, but is necessary to ensure that the right behavior is enforced or “punished” (from an operant conditioning perspective).
Most dog owners run into problems when they accidentally enforce bad behaviors because of poor timing. This has nothing to do with using food or rewards, but rather just has to do with timing. You can make the same mistakes using aversive training as well.
As for repeated rewarding – that is how reward training goes. The reward is the motivator and the dog performs a behavior because of the motivator. You can later switch to variable schedules of rewards etc.
Similarly aversive methods may require repeated applications of the aversive stimulus – that is how aversive training goes. The aversive stimulus is the motivator and the dog performs or not because of the motivator.
This is what I mean when I say animal behavioral psychology – conditioning techniques, i.e. classical and operant conditioning.
And therein lies the heart of the matter – Cesar basically teaches that reward training only works some of the time, i.e. it cannot be used to stop bad behaviors. This is untrue. Many years of study show that both reward training and aversive training work for shaping behavior as they are both based on operant conditioning principles. Reward based trainers, such as Victoria Stilwell retaliate by saying Cesar’s techniques are harsh and cruel.
“surely you notice that there is at least some realization to viewers/readers that his way isn’t the only way”
Actually it is not clear. As you have said yourself, Cesar does not believe in reward training for stopping bad behaviors. So if you believe in Cesar you would believe that the only way to stop bad behaviors is through aversive training – which is not true based on many years of behavioral psychology studies.
Yeah, I figured you knew more than I gave you credit when I got to digging around here, sorry.
I’ve also read Cesar’s Way, and it’s deffinately not the best of his three books. I’d say that his newest one, A Member of the Family, is the most informative. Cesar’s Way is mostly about how he came about his methods and about his life, and Be the Pack Leader is pretty informative, but kind of confusing if you’re new to his method.
“One of the big advantages of reward dog training is that it puts your dog in a positive mental state.” Well, yes and no. I find that when I’m using treats with my dog he’ll get into “bad” state.. Like, he’ll mouth my hands, step on me, invade my space. I’m not sure why. (I’m only talking about using food/toy rewards, not about no touch, no talk, no eye contact, or other reward techniques)
No touch, no talk, and no eye contact is more than just taking away attention. Dogs meet each other this way. Eye contact can mean trouble in the dog world, they challenge or threaten each other with it. This is why my dog has to meet people this way, because he’s very shy and feels threatened if they start crooning in a high pitched voice and staring at him. He’ll lower his head, growl, and try to get away. You can tell he wants to meet them, but when they start that he’ll run away. People just don’t understand and try to get him to come over with that when they’re doing the opposite. He needs to meet them on his own terms, but humans have other plans.
It makes me mad when people don’t respect my wishes of them to follow noTnoTnoEC, and these encounters usually end up with the people thinking my dog is aggressive and walking away.
As to why they don’t suit my dog, well, there are a few. One, my dog isn’t very food motivated. He likes food and treats, but not enough to really do something instead of an unwanted behavior for them. Two, I’ve always been an advocate for pack theory. When I was a kid my parents had a pack of dogs. They were all calm/submissive and respected all family members, even my sister and I. Living very close to nature, and having a love for nature ever since I was little (my sister and I chose to watch something on lions or the jungle other than cartoons when we were little, or we’d go watch birds or play outside) I have respect for it, and think that nature is the best way to go when it comes to living things. Things like time-out in dog training, just seem.. not right to me. Not saying they don’t work, It’s just I don’t like them. Three, I’ve tried Victoria’s ways, and they just seemed indirect to me. I like dealing with the problem directly, the way another dog would.
Hope that clears some of it up for you.
I would just like to say that I think both of you made very good points. Shiba, you stated that Ceasar places his training methods above anybody elses and goes to the extent of “putting down” those who focus their training around the positive-reward method. However, as I agree, you make the statement later that Ceasar does indeed use reward dog training just not to the extent of Victoria. What is important to note is exactly what Alex said in her first response. What Ceasar does not personally believe in is the repeated reward practice where all you do is focus on giving praise but not focusing on the negative behavior that led to the trouble in the first place. Rather than associating a certain behavior with a treat over and over again Ceasar has the belief that through correction of the mistakes, a positive outcome can be reached naturally without complete association to that treat. This was stated very clearly in his writing and particularly the episode about the Golden Retriever who was scared of the air pressure hose.
This directly goes into the positive mental state comment. I’m sure even Ceasar would agree that the ultimate goal is for a dog to be in a positive mental state. One of his recurring themes of the show is telling the owner that their “positive energy” is very important as the animal senses it. “Positive mental state” is also emphasized by Ceasar when dogs are rewarded –by and only by– their correct behavior. It makes the dog feel rewarded mentally but doesn’t establish a dependency on a treat or whatever that reward may be (this relates to the repeated reward topic in the above paragraph). The downside is the very fact that it doesn’t focus on the wrongs but only avoids a problem by emphasizing a positive. It makes sense that you need to correct a negative behavior at its root.
Lastly, through his reading and his shows surely you notice that there is at least some realization to viewers/readers that his way isn’t the only way. After all it is always stated on the show (and often mentioned in his readings) that owners can get a great amount of help from professionals trainers and are encouraged to do so before going about their own way from what they see on TV. You mention yourself that all training techniques are based on “animal behavioral psychology.” Frankly it just seems like Ceasar is calling it what it is. Understandably that was your opinion (as you stated) and you are definitely entitled to it. However it was quite shocking for me personally to see that video of Victoria undeniably agree to the claim that she was the “God of Dog Training.” That, to me, shows not a lack “of charisma” but frankly that’s just a lack of class. Obviously it speaks thousands about her personality which in turn is very important when you are trying to help owners.
Hi Alex,
.
This will have to be a multi-part answer
1. Cesar Millan’s books and shows – I have read Cesar’s Way and seen pretty much all the Dog Whisperer episodes. I have also bought several seasons of his Dog Whisperer shows. I started out with Cesar’s techniques so I actually do know a fair number of aversive methods and have tried them out on my Shiba Inu.
2. Cesar Millan and reward dog training – Yes I agree that Cesar does do reward training occasionally. In fact, some of his popular techniques including body blocks and no-talk,no-touch,no-eye-contact are reward techniques. I write about it here:
http://hubpages.com/_brec/hub/Cesar-Milan-Dog-Training-the-Dog-Whisperer
3. Dog behavior modification vs. Dog training – To me, its all behavior training. There are desirable behaviors (Sit, Down, chewing on toys, etc.) and undesirable behaviors (biting people, humping people, chewing on my shoes, etc.). The techniques used are all based on animal behavioral psychology, in particular, conditioning techniques.
4. Positive mental states – “These are great if you want your dog in a positive mental ….” – You are exactly right. One of the big advantages of reward dog training is that it puts your dog in a positive mental state. Not sure what the downside is.
5. “I personally like Stilwell’s methods, but just don’t find them to be the best way for me and my dog.”
I definitely respect that. But I am curious – can you elaborate as to why they are not suited for you and your dog?
I’ll definitely get to all your other interesting points. Just need to break them up into chunks
Thanks Alex!
Oops, one last point I forgot to make;
“He does this by always putting down the people who use food as rewards. He also does this by saying that other dog trainers just teach tricks, and using terms like “dog psychology” to make his methods sound superior to those other people that just do dog tricks.” I discussed part of this in my other post (the part about putting down food rewarding people). As for him using the term dog psycology, he did found the Dog Psycology Center of LA. It’s only fair that he calls it dog psycology, seeing as it’s his main line of work. While other trainers mostly train the dog how to behave, Cesar untrains them back into a balanced way of being, and teaches the owners how to create this balance. I think the big difference with Victoria and Cesar (pos. reinforce. vs. Pack/dominance) is science. Positive reinforcement people look at dog training as purely science (well, mostly). While this is great on learning how dogs associate things such as treats and praise with sound and commands, it takes them away from the very spiritual way of Cesar’s. You see, Cesar’s way isn’t just a dog training theory, it is a very spiritual philosophy that connects you with your dog and nature in a deep way. Energy is the way all animals comunicate what they’re internal/mental state is at any given moment. Few people connect with this in the high-tech scientific world we live in. We’ve lost the connection with the world we once had, but it is never totally lost. You can always get back that instinctual way in one manner or another, which is how Cesar’s way works. You’re very connected with your dog, and in turn, are connected with nature. I’m not sure if your way is like this or not, as I’ve never had a dog that I used these techniques on, but it is a very enlightening experience.
Okay, I’ve rambled on enough.
I don’t think that one way is the right way, I just don’t like Victoria because of the attitude she has. I’ve trained my dog to do tons of tricks, most of them he learned within the first week we had him (he was only 7 weeks old at the time). I just like that Cesar never yells at the dogs, or really ever gets mad at all. I also use food as a way to gain trust with my dog (i.e. using it to positively associate a collar he doesn’t want to put on, or feeding him by hand every once in a while as a trust ritual.)
I’m guessing you’ve never read Cesar’s books, because of what you said, and since you like positive training. That’s fine by me, but if you had read his books you’d know that Cesar thinks using food as a reward is great. He does this a lot with his dogs; he just doesn’t do it in the conventional way. Instead of giving the dog treat after treat after treat when the dog does something he wants it to, he used food to invite a dog into his space (gaining trust) and to reward after they have worked and are in a good state of mind. He’s also used it as a challenge by walking all his dogs down to the local meat market, getting them all a meaty bone, and challenging them to walk the whole way back without stopping to eat the bones in their mouths, and of course letting them all consume the bones after their little exercise.
A lot of people don’t know this, but Cesar used to train dogs (like sit, stay, come, and heel stuff), because he hadn’t developed his method yet. Cesar just doesn’t do those kinds of training, because he’s been studying and watching dogs all his life, and it just didn’t seem natural. They do have their place, though. Most of the time when he says something about the positive reinforcement side he’s talking about obedience classes, which are mostly based around excitement, rewards, toys, and treats. These are great if you want your dog in a positive mental and social exercise, but not so great for controlling behavior at home. There is a difference between Victoria’s methods, and the ones listed above. I personally like Stilwell’s methods, but just don’t find them to be the best way for me and my dog.
I’d like to comment on some of the things you said in your post, Cesar Millan: the Good and the Bad of the Dog Whisperer. Well, first, you said that dogs don’t use leashes to control each other, but Cesar does. You’re absolutely right. The point of him doing this, though, is for a few reasons. The dogs he comes to help hardly know him. They respect him, but they don’t share a mutual trust right away. He gains this trust a little but not enough to not use a leash. With his dogs he doesn’t use leashes, and for that reason. His dogs trust him and obey him, so he can let them off the leash. Client’s dogs usually have severe problems and can’t be trusted off the leash, so the leash is for the dogs’ – and his- protection. The leash also acts as a surrogate hand that can be used quickly, precisely, and accurately. Other dogs can communicate to each other way more than we ever could. This is why they go without leashes, but we have to sometimes.
You said that in your last comment, now I’ll go on to what you said in the post you made. “His emphasis on large breed dogs and aggressive dogs, as well as his approach of pack leadership through aversive techniques, perpetuates some inaccurate myths on dog training, including:
o You cannot train large breed dogs with reward techniques.
o You cannot train aggressive dogs with reward techniques.”
Like I said earlier, Cesar does use positive reinforcement and positive association. It’s a very important part of the process. The difference with Cesar’s approach is that he rewards the dogs at specific times and only after work. This simulates what a dog would do in the wild, because dogs would have to walk for miles a day before finding or hunting down a meal. Although we cannot hunt with our dogs, we can still walk with them, or give them a job to do like herding, hunting, retrieving, or any other breed (or non-breed) specific activities that challenges the dog. The part about not being able to train a large or aggressive dog with reward techniques is very false. One time he used cheese to break an aggressive dog’s focus on another dog he was trying to get at. He has often taken his clients to obedience classes or recommended another trainer to help them after he has gone. Both of the times I’ve seen this, the dogs were a German Shepherd and a Golden Retriever. Both of them were aggressive. One time he said (when he was helping an extremely “red-zone” aggressive case) that in his experience, when a dog gets as bad as this dog was, the only way to rehabilitate them fully was to use the pack. The logic behind this being that in a truly “red-zone” aggression case, nothing matters to that dog other than hurting a person or another animal. No amount of limiting resources or freedom will help, because it just doesn’t matter to them. The only motivating force stronger than freedom, food, resources, or affection, is that of a balanced pack.
“Even though Cesar may sometimes say that changing a dog’s behavior takes time, his Dog Whisperer program shows the opposite. This encourages a fix it now or give up mentality among dog owners that may lead to more dogs being surrendered or destroyed.” Cesar often says on his show that even if you fail today, you can always recreate the situation and try again. This is the basis for his work. The dogs have had these problems for years or more, some had previous trainers tell the owner they were untreatable. Then he shows that even though these dogs have had these habits for years, they are always ready to adopt a better way of being. Where other trainers say a dog isn’t able to be helped, he does it in a matter of days, or even weeks. Most of the time when Cesar leaves a client the dog isn’t fixed. He simply shows the owner how to help with the dog’s problems (or rather, how to fix themselves to help the dog). Most of the hard work is done by him (work that could not be done by the owner because of the owner’s fear or other emotional disability towards the dog
) and most of the time the owners just don’t have the expertise to do these things, which is why he does them and then tells them how to maintain it.
‘Very little discussion on the proper equipment to use and the proper use of that equipment.’ Cesar is there to help the dogs. Most equipment comes with instructions on how to use said equipment. If not, it’s up to a dog owner to seek help in the use of equipment. Cesar says that people just need to use common sense, which means you shouldn’t be using a collar as a means to hurt or damage a dog’s trust, and you should always seek out a professional to help with your problems if you’re unsure.
“Little or no exploration on what type of leader we should be.” “Cesar seems to support something more akin to a dictatorship, where everything the leader says goes, and not following a rule, brings about some kind of punishment whether it be a leash jerk, a finger poke, or an alpha roll. The dog is always expected to walk close to but behind the human, and there is very little stopping to smell the roses” You should be a calm-assertive pack leader, of course! Cesar says this on his show all the time. So many people see the word “assertive” and think “aggressive”, when this really isn’t the case. Assertive means to just have to ask and it will be done, because just being calm assertive makes a dog –or even a human- want to follow what you say. Pack leadership is a very important thing to a dog. Dogs naturally want to have a leader that tells them what to do, so they don’t have to have the stress of deciding. There have been studies done on wolf pack leaders, and even though the leaders get all the affection and food they want, they have much higher stress levels because they are ultimately responsible for the survival of the pack. Domestic dogs, even though they’re survival doesn’t depend on hunting or living in the wild, still have this mentality. Dogs naturally will follow a leader, no questions asked, if the leader is truly being a good, calm-assertive, pack leader. So once you establish that leadership, the dog will naturally follow you. The way they show this leadership often looks aggressive to us; they bite each other and roll each other over, but it isn’t aggressive, it’s what dogs understand. Each of these techniques need to be used only at the correct time. (alpha rolls are only used to either calm a dog down, get the dog to submit to another dog after they just attacked, or to show them that what they did in a particular spot seconds before was bad.). You never use this just to assert dominance, because it would not work for that. None of these things are ever hurtful to the dog, it’s just the way a dog communicates, plain as that. For example; my dog gets freaked out when my sister rides our horse. I don’t know why, but he does. He’ll whine and cry and pant really fast, with no stop. So the other day I decided to try and help this. First, I went over to the edge of the ring with him, turned his back on the ring, and gave him a correction whenever he tried to look around at the horse and my sister. This teaches him to ignore what’s going on behind him, and just focus on where he is, which is what a dog is supposed to do. This helped a little, but wasn’t getting a lot of progress, so I went over to my seat and put him on his side (I just had him lay down and then coaxed him on his side with my hand) I held him there until his panting and whining had decreased, and then I let him up. It’s a work in progress, but he did seem to be less stressed afterwards.
“Cesar uses a variety of aversive techniques including, alpha rolls, leash jerks, and finger pokes. He often tells owners that these techniques do not cause the dogs any pain or stress, it is just meant to get the dogs’ attention. There is also an implication that these techniques are appropriate and humane because wolves do that to other wolves, or dogs do that to other dogs. Both of these statements are not very accurate.
All aversive techniques cause an unpleasant sensation, or it would not work. An aversive technique may sometimes cause stress and fear in a dog, which is why the dog avoids that behavior in the future. Aversive techniques can also backfire if not executed properly, with the correct force, with the proper timing, and with the proper redirection. When not executed properly, aversive techniques may cause additional behavioral problems in dogs including aggression.” These techniques are mainly to get the dogs attention. It redirects their attention on whatever they’re doing onto you or another activity. In my opinion, none of these techniques cause an uncomfortable sensation, so I don’t think they should be called aversive. When I use them with proper timing and energy, my dog barely needs any touch. Just a light poke will make him stop, or even just my usual “stop it” sound I make. I think it’s like a dog’s “pressure point”, something that is embedded in their DNA to know. The only aversive technique I’ve seen Cesar use is the shock collar. He only uses this if he wants to associate something with discomfort (he used it once for a border collie that would try and bite tires, and one time on his own dog, Daddy, to make sure he associated snakes with being very, very bad and to never get near them.) With everything else, he doesn’t want a negative association, because that negative association would ultimately come back to him. As long as his energy isn’t angry or aggressive, his corrections will simply get attention off of an unwanted behavior. This is why it sometimes takes multiple corrections to get the point through to them. Cesar’s techniques are strongly based on mutual trust, respect, and love. It wouldn’t get such amazing results if it wasn’t. As for your last point on how aversive techniques can backfire, you’re right. This is why every show tells owners to consult a professional and to not try the techniques if they don’t know what they’re doing. If you do not heed these warnings, then it’s you who is going to pay for it.
Sorry this post was so long, but I had a lot of information to put in it.
Hope to hear from you! Feel free to enlighten me on what you think, as I’m always open for new information.
Hi Alex, You bring up many good points. I probably can’t do them all justice now, as it is late and I must sleep soon
But I do want to respond to a few now:
1. Cesar Millan is more charismatic than Victoria Stilwell – I agree with you on this. In fact, I think most people think so as well because let’s face it, Cesar is a lot more popular. However, this does not mean that Cesar’s way is the right way or that Victoria’s way is the wrong way. This leads well into the next thing.
2. “Cesar has never said or hinted that his way is the only good way” – Actually I think (my opinion) that he does more than hint at this. He does this by always putting down the people who use food as rewards. He also does this by saying that other dog trainers just teach tricks, and using terms like “dog psychology” to make his methods sound superior to those other people that just do dog tricks
3. “Even though she advocates to no use punishment on a dog, she herself uses time out, which Cesar does not believe in because dogs do not live in the past.”
A time-out is more about revoking a dog’s freedom than it is about giving the dog time to think about his mistakes. For example, if a dog behaves badly with guests, he gets a time-out, which essentially revokes his access to all the interesting people that he would do like to meet. This is an extremely effective way to get a dog to behave because you are telling him – if you want to greet these interesting people, you have to do it according to my rules. If you don’t, you don’t get to greet them.
4. “Either way is just fine. Some people will like one way, and others the other. We should all be focused in learning everything we can to grow as individuals, and try not to shut things out.”
I most definitely agree with you on this. I also think that it is best to gather as much information as you can. And not shutting things out is a good point. I would like to point out though that both Cesar Millan and Victoria Stilwell shuts things out
Cesar is just better at doing it because he is more charismatic. But his whole dog psychology blah blah blah – dog tricks stuff is all about shutting out reward techniques 
Bottom line; Either way is just fine. Some people will like one way, and others the other. We should all be focused in learning everything we can to grow as individuals, and try not to shut things out.
Oops, I accidentally hit the enter button;
Cesar has never said or hinted that his way is the only good way. In fact, he openly says that anyway is fine as long as it’s not harmful to the dog, and if it gets results, great. He and Victoria should be on the same page. They both obviously want to help dogs, and they think that people babying their dogs and seeing the dogs as humans only turns sour in the end.
The only thing I have to say about Cesar is that he markets himself a bit too much. This might be because Nat Geo wants to sell his merchandise, but he does get part of the profit. I do applaud him, though, because his Center is a non-profit organization, and he spends alot of money on each dog to make sure they get the best nutrition and healthcare around. The DPCLA also helps shelters and rescues across the nationthrough donations.
Now that I’ve gotten through the trainer part, lets look at the methods. Victoria’s methods are strictly positive based training. She says that science is on her side, but there are flaws in it, none the less. The flaw with positive based training is that you mostly reward, reward, and reward a behavior you want, but do almost nothing for a behavior you don’t. This just means that you’re focusing the dog into a better activity, but not ruling out the bad behavior all together. Even though she advocates to no use punishment on a dog, she herself uses time out, which Cesar does not believe in because dogs do not live in the past. They arn’t sitting there saying, “oh, trainer got mad at me when I bit so now I’m in time out for it.” They just don’t rationalize like that.
The thing is, dogs don’t naturally learn with positive-based training. Hell, they don’t learn through training at all! If they are with other dogs, those dogs touch each other, they do bite to communicate. Energy and touch is the natural way a dog communicates. For owners, touching their dog is a sensitive thing. Most dog owners do not want to touch their dogs, because touch (other than petting) is seen as abuse, or has some other negative aspect. People tend to jump to conclusions when they see this man on TV “man handling” (as I’ve heard it called) the dogs. I’ve use these methods on my dog and find nothing wrong with them. If you use the right energy, the corrections work with just a little firm touch. The dog resepcts you, and trusts you. They show that they arn’t being frightened into submission, because they will gravitate to you for affection. There is nothing detrimental about it if done using common sense.
The bad thig about Cesar’s methods are that they take time to understand completely. Especially if you live in West Virginia like I do, no where near Cesar, or any other trainer, for that matter. CMI.com has a community forum where you can seek help with your problems. And if you do not heed the warnings “do not try the techniques you are about to see without consulting a professional” you could end up hurting yourself or the dog if you do not know what you’re doing.
Well, I’ve just about typed my fingers to death, so I’ll let someone else comment.
There are a couple of big differences between Victoria and Cesar that have to deal with their personality. The biggest one I’ve come across with Victoria is that gets very angry when any dominance(Cesar’s Way) is mentioned. She even had a fit on “Greatest American Dog” when one of the judges said “Move over, Cesar Millan”. She threw a fit! I couldn’t believe my eyes. It was like the man (trainer on the show) had personally offended her, she called those methods mideval, and even said that she was the God of dog training. I really had a hard time taking her seriously after that. (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iaHeVynJW8) She just seems a little too close minded and fails to even give another way a chance.
I’ve watched her show on and off for a year or two now, and I’ve come to find that Victoria makes the owners feel bad. I mean, you can tell someone what they’ve been doing wrong and have it get across to them without making them feel guilty. On one show she totally blamed the owners for letting their dog be stressed, and said that she was going to die younger because of it! Shouldn’t she be there to help the dog, not hurt the owners?
Cesar is always very level-headed. Sometimes on the show he can come off as harsh, but it is usually because the owners fail to see how they are phycologically harming their dog, or worse, letting the dog hurt their children. The only epidode he seemed pretty ticked was when the mother let her chihuahua bite and boss her son around. He even said he was surprised with himself when he said that it wasn’t going to work, and that it was a little personal for him because he would never put his dogs before his sons. Cesar eventually broke through and got her to understand, though. Now her son can enjoy his pet without the bite marks and resentment.